Latest arrival, Schatz Rosenthal

Discussion in '400-Day & Atmos' started by etmb61, Aug 4, 2016.

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  1. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
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    I missed out on one of these a few years ago so this is a happy addition to my collection. It came missing the center finial, with a slight dent on the bezel, and a bazaar attempt at a homemade suspension spring. The movement is dated 4 58 and is encapsulated in petrified oil. They even saw fit to oil the hands (and dial). Luckily the dial cleaned up easily using ,wait for it, good old WD:whistle:.

    My loving wife has already granted this one a place in our living room once it's cleaned up.

    Eric
     

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  2. John Hubby

    John Hubby Senior Administrator Emeritus
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    Eric, thanks for posting and congratulations!! Of all the Schatz post-WWII clocks I have wanted to have in my collection is a complete and original Rosenthal porcelain model. For lack of being in the right place at the right time or whatever, have not had the opportunity to buy one so all I can do is enjoy others' good fortune. :clap:
     
  3. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
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    It took me over five years to get this one. The one I missed was near flawless, but by the time I got pictures of it, it was gone.

    These did have a long run. The examples I've seen had dates ranging from 2/53 to 12/64. You would think there were many more of these out there.
     
  4. pollythecat

    pollythecat Registered User

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    I don't really go for post WW2 anniversary clocks but this one is quite pretty, you got me thinking Eric, I should broaden my horizons a little.

    BTW: I bought a C1910 JUF to which someone had fitted a suspension spring from a pendulum clock. how was that going to work?:D It runs perfectly now with a Horolovar spring.
     
  5. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
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    I too would rather have the pre-war clocks, but I think the early post war JUF/Schatz full size clocks were some of the highest quality ever produced.
     
  6. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
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    Almost there, movement degreased, cleaned, and serviced. So much oil everywhere, still need to finish with the base and pendulum.

    Eric
     

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  7. pollythecat

    pollythecat Registered User

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  8. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    Gorgeous clock Eric! I got lucky and stumbled across one dated 2/53. I'll post some pictures when it arrives.
     
  9. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    I'm going to need a dome and a pendulum. Can you tell me what size this clock requires. Do all Schatz 49s take the same size dome?
     
  10. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
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    The domes are all the same size, but the pendulums vary in design by when they were made. Hope the rest is in good shape.

    Eric
     
  11. Kevin W.

    Kevin W. Registered User
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    Good looking clock Eric, WD is a good preservative, but not a lubricant. Glad you found it and your wife shares your interests.
     
  12. mjstewart

    mjstewart Registered User
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    I'm pretty sure I helped you to pay a fair market price for this one on that big online auction site! Congrats man.
     
  13. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
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    Dave,

    Here is the 1953 style you're looking for. I have 4 in my spares btw.

    1.jpg 2.jpg

    Eric
     
  14. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
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    WD's solvent base will help remove dried up oils but you have to clean it all off afterward.

    I don't think she shares the interest, I think she's just given up on trying to stop me. She never knows what the time is anymore.
     
  15. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
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    More than some, less than others, I can't complain.
     
  16. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    Thanks Eric, Glad to see what I'm searching for. I've got only one 49, and it's got a pendulum with painted balls and center post.
     
  17. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
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    Getting closer! Looks much better but it won't run. I must have missed or bent something so the movement has to come apart again. I still need to clean up the pendulum.

    Eric
     

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  18. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    That's a perfect example! I'm sure if anyone can get it running you will.
     
  19. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    Received this Grapevine Rosenthal today. Here's some 'before cleaning' pictures. Schatz 49 Rosenthal6.jpg Schatz 49 Rosenthal5.jpg Schatz 49 Rosenthal3.jpg Schatz 49 Rosenthal2 Porcelain.jpg Schatz 49 Rosenthal Porcelain.jpg

    Schatz 49 Rosenthal6.jpg Schatz 49 Rosenthal5.jpg Schatz 49 Rosenthal3.jpg Schatz 49 Rosenthal2 Porcelain.jpg Schatz 49 Rosenthal Porcelain.jpg
     
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  20. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
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    Very nice! I can say from mine that the gold bands on the base seem to be painted on rather than fired into the glazing. I would be very careful with the vine patterns and the dial as well. The dial's gold markings on mine appear to be stenciled over the glazing.

    I could not find a matching Rosenthal china pattern for either of these clocks.

    Eric
     
  21. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    Very ornate base and dial on the Grapevine Rosenthal!

    On the Rosenthal that I just acquired (which is the same as Eric's), I noticed this sticker on the underside of the base which appears to be fired into it. Anyone have some background on this?

    Kurt
    RosenthalSticker.jpg
     
  22. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    I was thinking the same thing Eric, I wiped mine down with a damp cloth, very lightly. Think I'll stop at that. The top suspension hanger bracket is slightly bent downward. Think I can support it in a vice and straighten it by hand. Other thoughts or suggestions?
    Schatz 49 Rosenthal hanger.jpg
     
  23. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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  24. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
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    Kurt,

    That's a business address in Munich. Looks like their warrantee label.

    Eric
     
  25. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
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    That's how I'd fix it. Use a smooth jaw vise.

    Eric
     
  26. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    Eric, What I've found so far indicates that Rosenthal had their own Art Department = Kunstabteilung.
    Here's a history of the various logos, but does not include those in the Art Department. http://collectrosenthal.com/markingsdate.html
    I understand the company is still producing china in Bavaria.
     
  27. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
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    I think they are owned by Wedgwood now.
     
  28. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    Could be. I also found this reference: "Rosenthal porcelain was made at the factory established in Selb, Bavaria, in 1880. The factory is still making fine-quality tablewares and figurines. A series of Christmas plates was made from 1910. A set of modern rimless plates, straight-sided teapots, and cups was made in 1950. Other limited edition plates have been made since 1971. In 1998 Rosenthal was acquired by the Waterford Wedgwood Group. Rosenthal was bought by Sambonet Paderno Industries, headquartered in Orfento, Novaro, Italy, in 2009. Rosenthal china is still being produced in Bavaria." From: https://www.kovels.com/price-guide/pottery-porcelain-price-guide/rosenthal/Page-2.html
     
  29. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    That was an easy fix. Now all I need is a bottom block.
    Schatz 49 Rosenthal hanger1.jpg Schatz 49 Rosenthal hanger.jpg
     
  30. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    Coming up on four years now I've had this clock. (Schatz 49) And I have yet to get it to run successfully.
    To review, there is a long history here of all the adjustments that have been made to it. And probably a lot of them that shouldn't have been

    So, I'm going back to square one and do it by the book (Terwiliger's Repair Guide).
    But before I tear it completely down again, I've notice that the lock on the entrance pallet is not as deep as it should be, and the exit looks about right.
    I know the pallets have been adjusted but I don't remember about the eccentric.

    Haven't figured out yet or remember how to adjust the pallets to correct this in the movement, or if it's even possible. So, would adjusting the eccentric be an option.
    Does the eccentric just raise and lower the anchor, or does it also affect lock?

    I'm going all over the board here trying to figure out where to start, (before I tear it down again).

    Suggestions appreciated.
     
  31. KurtinSA

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    Check the table in the repair guide. It says that raising the eccentric decreases the locks and conversely lowering the eccentric increases the locks. Of course, moving the eccentric affects the drops.

    You should first get the drops right by moving the eccentric as needed...typically this should never be touched. Then evaluate the locks. Realize that moving the pallets affects both pallets. This is where things get kind of squirrely for me. But you should try to get the anchor pin to be vertical when an escape wheel tooth is about 1/3 down the impulse face. If I don't have that, and I can even see that when the anchor is sitting on a flat surface, then I visualize how moving the anchor will help that situation. Likely that will mean moving one pallet in by x amount and moving the other pallet out by the same x amount. Theoretically, the locks haven't changed. When you get the anchor vertical, then you need to start down the path of moving only one pallet to improve the locks...as per the table.

    Kurt
     
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  32. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    A little update. Found that the exit drop was too small, and that the eccentric had been lowered substantially from original. Tried to lower it further to correct the drop, but it wouldn't move.

    So... I'm thinking, tear it down again, clean it and start from scratch. In the process, I decided to put the eccentric back to original factory and try it again. So now, the entrance drop is too small and the exit drop is about right. Lowered the eccentric slightly but clock still won't run.

    Also confirmed that the power train is sufficient. On about 2 or 3 clicks the escape snaps sharply. Thought maybe the mainspring needed cleaning, as I don't recall what I did 4 years ago. Now I think it's fine.

    I do know I adjusted the pallets, and now I'm thinking it might be a pallet adjustment issue.

    Moving on.
     
  33. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    Well, I've adjusted the pallets twice this afternoon, and the escape is locking up.

    Trying to figure out the proper tension on those pallets so I can adjust it in the clock. It's a pain taking it apart for trial and error.
     
  34. Wayne A

    Wayne A Registered User
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    Sometimes when I'm doing pallet tuning I only put in the last three stages of gears and use finger power, just faster and easier. Kinda hard to move a pallet a tenth of a millimeter by eye, so I always take them out. Drops don't have to be a perfect match, close works, but the locks should be the same as you can get them. Kinda sounds like your pallets are long if it so easy to lockup.
     
  35. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    Yea, I've had this thing apart 4 times today to adjust pallets, (after I set the eccentric lock back to what I thought was original).
    First two times had no or barely any lock, Then I got it too low, and it locked up. Last attempt was got it too high again.
    And I'm adjusting both pallets each time, trying to get them equal on both sides. And I know that creates a double whammy. After I get close I'll then adjust one at a time as necessary.

    But, I'm getting a feel for where it needs to go and what direction. I'll get there, if I live long enough! :)
     
  36. KurtinSA

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    Yeah, adjusting pallets can be fun!! I remember when I first starting working on these clocks, I really didn't want to have to split the plates again once I managed to get all the pivots in place...I just didn't think I could do it twice in a row. I probably was lucky those first few clocks as they didn't need any extra attention. Now, I've come to expect to take the plates apart maybe a dozen times in working on the clock. Between the testing of each arbor and arbor pairs, the initial wind up test, the throw in the changes needed on some escapements, it's not a big deal to take them apart. But it does get frustrating to move something that 0.1mm! Especially when the pallet sticks and then jumps under a little more fingernail pressure. Arrrgh!

    Kurt
     
  37. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    The good thing about these is they're much easier to assemble than most other clocks, only five arbors to deal with.
    I timed myself on the last adjustment and it took me ten minutes. With all the gears including the spring.

    Think I'll take the suggestion from Wayne, and remove the spring and the second wheel from now on. That would make it even quicker.
     
  38. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    #38 Dave T, Jun 5, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2020
    Seems as if I haven't hit the sweet spot yet. Right now the locks are very shallow, equally on both sides.
    And the drop is too big on the exit and too small on the entrance.

    That indicates either, lower both pallets, or lower the pivot hole.

    But a I've tried to lower the pallets and then it locks up. So, I think I need to lower the pivot.
     
  39. KurtinSA

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    It's been my limited understanding that first the drops need to be set and then adjust the pallets. According to the guide, changing the eccentric also affects the locks. But adjusting the pallets doesn't change the drops. So, do the one that affects both, and then the pallet adjustments are only dealing with one part of the escapement.

    Kurt
     
  40. Wayne A

    Wayne A Registered User
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    For sure moving the eccentric affects both, it raises/lowers and moves the pivot sideways at the same time. So set the drops with the eccentric first then try to leave that alone, then set locks with the pallets keeping the pin centered in the drops.
     
  41. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    Okay guys, back on this clock. After a day or so, it's still there staring at me.
    So, I took it apart again, found a slightly bent pivot on the escape wheel. Not sure when that happened, but with reassembly so many times, it probably happened recently.
    Straightened that out, and while I was at it, I polished the escape wheel tips. They all look good, and I don't see any bent tips.
    Put it back together once again.
    The issue I see is that with the eccentric in near as I can see original position, the pallets lock on the impulse surface, and If I lower the pallets any further it locks up. That's as far as I get. In several attempts. I've tried adjusting the eccentric to correct with no improvement

    So, what now and in what order?

    This picture shows lockup on the entrance pallet.
    Schatz 49 Rosenthal ew adj.jpg
     
  42. KurtinSA

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    Well, you can't raise the pallets a whole lot because you'll getting flutter. The book says for shallow or very shallow locks, you have to move pallets down. I'd pick the worst one and begin lowering the pallet little by little. Then reassess.

    Kurt
     
  43. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    #43 Dave T, Jun 6, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2020
    I agree, pallets need to go lower, but can't because of lockup.!!

    What am I missing here?
     
  44. KurtinSA

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    Hmmm...raise the eccentric? If you raise it, it will effectively lower the pallets relative to the EW teeth and get out of the locked situation. Then you can reinvestigate the drops and locks.

    Kurt
     
  45. Wayne A

    Wayne A Registered User
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    Sometimes its not possible to achieve perfect drops and locks at the same time, I'd prioritize locks being equal if not deep. Just from that tiny pic I'd try slightly rotating the eccentric ccw, if no good, raise a pallet 0.1mm, try again, if no good raise a pallet 0.1mm, try again. Its easy to make moves well to large and pass right over the spot you need to be so use a pattern of small adjustments in one direction and see if you hit the right combination.
     
  46. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    Okay, thanks boys. That's what I've been doing, but evidently haven't nailed on the right combination yet.
    I've achieved equal locks, but there's no depth to them. Middle of impulse surface is the best I have so far.
     
  47. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    Think we're getting somewhere!

    Rotated the eccentric in two increments CCW to get it to unlock. Probably a millimeter. It's now locking just barely off the impulse face, and looks to be about equal.

    I'm afraid to touch it now.
     
  48. Wayne A

    Wayne A Registered User
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    Good deal, now to see if it runs?
     
  49. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    Was debating on whether to fine tune it a little, or just try it.
     
  50. Wayne A

    Wayne A Registered User
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    Well I do like tuning and you can always go back if you take some measurements.
     

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