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Lantern Clock Longcase ??

Jezster18

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I'm going to leave it to the knowledgable people on here to see what you make of my wife's latest find.
It seems that she is now Lovejoy & I'm relegated to being Eric,
very unusual, very heavy with big feet & robust works, 8 3/4 H X 6 1/4 W X 6 1/4 D Inches the sizes are just the works not including bell stand height
Dial 11 1/4 the chapter ring is quite large, no holes for spandrels, no name so far,
Date Wheel atached to the pillar & it turns
Thank you again to Dean T & novicetimekeeper it has a pinion of report on the arbor to drive the countwheel.
Any idea to date, nice hand, unfortunately missing a piece.

Collected from Lancashire & the case as the style of Lancashire cases, we only know that it was found in a very old house.

No bell , look at that lead weight, it's really different.

By the way the radiator is not switched on next to it, but it won't be staying there for long.

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Jezster18

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Hello again, I've added more pictures as I've removed the dial & date wheel & there is engraving of j's everywhere & ogde all in script.
I beleive this is a Ogden clock & I'm putting it back as it was & not touching it at all, until I know from someone with knowledge & I'm going to send pictures to Brian Loomes & ask him what he thinks as he has spent numerous hours researching the ogdens & at the moment I know he is researching with others about Lantern Clock styles of works.
we are leaving the dust & case as is.
any information from the forum would be helpful.

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novicetimekeeper

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It has a westmorland style of date, and the posts look like they once had finials, though there are no signs of side doors so perhaps not a repurposed lantern. I love all the extra bits of engraving.
 
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Schatznut

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The Lovejoy/Eric reference is wonderful! :cool:
 
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P.Hageman

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Very thrilled to see the pictures! I am almost certain its made by John Ogden the first one. What a beautifull movement and dial, does remind me on the early John Sanderson/ movements end dials as well. Certainly Quacker looking plain dial. Congrats, I love it! Would fit perfectly in my collection.

sanderson2.jpg
 
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Jezster18

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Very thrilled to see the pictures! I am almost certain its made by John Ogden the first one. What a beautifull movement and dial, does remind me on the early John Sanderson/ movements end dials as well. Certainly Quacker looking plain dial. Congrats, I love it! Would fit perfectly in my collection.

View attachment 692629
Thank you for your comment, I've read an article online from clocks magazine September 2004 wrote by Brian Loomes.
There is a picture of a 8 inch brass dial, no spandrels with James Ogden 1712 engraved to the centre, this is the son of James Ogden senior.
He died very young, & the dial Brian Loomes said was made for a hooded case or longcase. as young James had just finished his apprenticeship.
If you compare the scrolling J & the O on that dial, & then look at the date ring of our clock you will see the very similar J & O . Brian Loomes also said about J O on the clock & our one also has J O in script on the centre of the cartwheel. with other j's on the exposed rear of the chapter ring between the spokes.
As in the article, this oversize very heavy works, fits exactly to the dial & there is a brass wedge on the cannon to turn the teeth of the date wheel unfortunately missing a few teeth.
I'm leaning more to James the younger & not John, as he had moved away to Darlington & married into the Calvert family who were quakers & there was a 50 year rift B. Loomes says between them. see link

The clock case with the caddy top style is similar to others around 1710, The case even has a hole in the backboard which has been done as the crutch foot is very close to the backboard, due to the size of the works. everything was found together in an old house in Preston, which is closer to Westmorland (see post by novicetimekeeper above) where the Ogdens lived & B Loomes says that all of the Lantern Clocks were made in Soyland which is the same area. Darlington in the North where John moved to is quite a few miles away.
The clock has now been taken apart & is under renovation, along with the case, the dial has been cleaned & silvered sympatheticallt, rather than being highly polished, as we like our antiques to look clean but natural, all of the screws have been attached with notes to paper so that when , the clock is back together, everything will go back as found.
A period bell has arrived today, & novietimekeeper was right again, it never had doors it only has 4 empty holes in the top plate, where a bell strap would have been fastened from each corner/inside edge of the top plate.
It has taken many hours by hand to remove the dust which was thick & grimy, no machinery used or abrasives. awaiting everything to be finished for an eventual final finish.

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Jevan

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Jezster18

I believe your movement may potentially be earlier than first thought.

The hammer on the movement is to the right and operates against a great-wheel having around eight hammer pins which is typical of early balance lantern clocks that had separately driven trains each of around twelve hours duration.

Although styles will have overlapped the hammer position gradually evolved to the left hand side as the later thirty hour pendulum regulated lantern clocks usually employed Huygens endless rope system the layout of which required the strike train to operate in the opposite direction.

All the clocks so far mentioned in this thread including those pictured in the Loomes article appear to have started life as pendulum clocks, I believe the original concept of your movement was balance, whether the balance was ever installed is another matter.
 
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Jezster18

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Jezster18

I believe your movement may potentially be earlier than first thought.

The hammer on the movement is to the right and operates against a great-wheel having around eight hammer pins which is typical of early balance lantern clocks that had separately driven trains each of around twelve hours duration.

Although styles will have overlapped the hammer position gradually evolved to the left hand side as the later thirty hour pendulum regulated lantern clocks usually employed Huygens endless rope system the layout of which required the strike train to operate in the opposite direction.

All the clocks so far mentioned in this thread including those pictured in the Loomes article appear to have started life as pendulum clocks, I believe the original concept of your movement was balance, whether the balance was ever installed is another matter.
Thank you Jevan, It's been a chore cleaning everything, & i totally forgot to look at the side the hammer was on to see the difference.
The great-wheel does have 8 hammer pins or what is now left of them after cleaning, they are worn half way through & it's hard to tell from this picture of the size of everything.
The great-wheels are 9cm diameter between the tips of the teeth, the countwheel is 9cm diameter, the date wheel is 13.5cm diameter,
the bellstand is 14.5 cm length & the hammer is 17cm in length, the curve being so it can pass over the anchor arbor.
everything about this clock is very robust & heavy, the anchor has wear grooves in both sides, so I will now be getting a quote fom a qualified clock repairer to see how much it's going to be to sympathetically repair the clock, but not over polish it, we don't want bling to the finish, we've seen other lantern clocks on the internet that are over done to our taste.
Try as we might we can't find anything to compare it with on the internet.

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Jevan

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Looking at your latest image it is difficult to imagine a verge balance was fitted.

The image is not too clear but the central movement plate would carry signs of fittings that are able to accommodate the balance escapement & similar to the images below, a crown wheel pivot would be carried in the bridge with the verge passing behind it with its bottom pivot held by a pottance riveted to the plate, traces of the pottance are seen as the square plugs mid-plate.

The escape wheel bushes in your clock look punched up and there is some hammer damage to the plate but there doesn't seem to be any spare or filled holes in the relevant area.

2.JPG

3.JPG
 

Jezster18

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Looking at your latest image it is difficult to imagine a verge balance was fitted.

The image is not too clear but the central movement plate would carry signs of fittings that are able to accommodate the balance escapement & similar to the images below, a crown wheel pivot would be carried in the bridge with the verge passing behind it with its bottom pivot held by a pottance riveted to the plate, traces of the pottance are seen as the square plugs mid-plate.

The escape wheel bushes in your clock look punched up and there is some hammer damage to the plate but there doesn't seem to be any spare or filled holes in the relevant area.

View attachment 692787

View attachment 692788
Thank you very much for this information, you are correct in what you say, I'm unfortunately not a clock repairer & I have repaired some of my other clocks, I can see what needs doing to the clock & feel with the help of a retired engineer over the road from me I could most probably check the bushes, as you are right again , it has had punching around quite a few of the bush holes for the pivots in the past. It was pinned with small tack pins everywhere including holding the dial on. that look like victorian ones from when i've repaired furniture in the past.
The pivots all seem in good order, I think the grooves in both pallet faces are possibly to deep to grind down to, & I do have some old clock spring & silver solder, I've never had a go before. I have some pivot wire & the chap has a pillar drill over the road & I suppose that the great -wheel pins would need drilling out & replacing with suitable pivot wire ones? The pinned front plate of the same great wheel which is steel has come away from two fixing pins, so they would need a similar repair?
The date wheel has approximately 5 teeth missing, I do have brass sheet that I could use & scribe around good teeth & cut & file a new piece, & wondered wether I should cut into the wheel & solder the new piece in & file to finish & match existing or to put a flange in & connect by drilling small holes & pinning similar to rivetting? Other than that there is very little wear on the teeth or the pinions & they all seem in good order due to the quality & thickness of the wheels.
I've labelled every screw etc, so that they will go back where they came from, & I don't like to bodge anything & try to consider how to do things & get advice before jumping in, I just get enjoyment out of doing it, if I can.
I'm concerned at doing something on such an old clock, although I did for the first time the other week, take apart a posted movement on our other quaker clock & cleaned everything & removed lacquer from everything it was even in the teeth & it runs fine, i've had a 8 leaf brass pinion of report made for that one & the clock maker sent it me with a centre hole drilled out & the engineer over the road is going to help me cut the square out to fit the arbor, which is all that needs doing now & check the new teeth are set properly to the countwheel.
Thank you kindly, I like being educated & you've really helped with your posts this evening, I appreciate it.
 

NigelW

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This is the top of my lantern clock c.1680 which I bought from Loomes himself after travelling to Yorkshire to meet the great man. It was made by Thomas Swinnerton of Newcastle under Lyme, the brother of an ancestor of mine who was also a clockmaker as was a third brother (I had asked Loomes to find a clock for me by any of the three).

I was told this had a balance wheel originally. You will see that the hanging hoop has been converted to a backcock. The other end of the anchor escapement arbor engages with a steel arm (removed in the picture) which is attached by a screw in a threaded hole (the left yellow one) at one end and a pin at the other (the green hole). The red hole and the right hand yellow hole are unused in its present configuration.

The balance wheel cock was probably fixed in place using the two yellow holes only. The green hole or the red hole could have been where the banking pin was located. The frets and sides are replacements.

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Jevan

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The great-wheel does have 8 hammer pins or what is now left of them after cleaning, they are worn half way through
Strike great-wheel pins can dramatically suffer through wear and I suspect the condition of yours although visually worrying is not unusual.
Unless the pins are on the point of failure rather than replacement I would examine the possibility of reducing subsequent wear by easing the hammer spring strength, often hammer springs on this type of clock are far too aggressively adjusted for modern day living, consider replacement when the pins are no longer functional.

It was pinned with small tack pins everywhere including holding the dial on. that look like victorian ones from when i've repaired furniture in the past.
Others use brass however I use mild steel taper pins although for lantern clocks commercially available clock pins will probably be too small.
I would suggest buying mild steel rod from a supplier happy to sell in small quantity such as Kennions Model Engineering Supplies.

KENNIONS MODEL ENGINEERING SUPPLIES - Steel

All mild steel is not equal, Leaded Bright Mild Steel EN1A is my preferred choice especially if lathe work is required.

The date wheel has approximately 5 teeth missing, I do have brass sheet that I could use & scribe around good teeth & cut & file a new piece, & wondered wether I should cut into the wheel & solder the new piece in & file to finish & match existing or to put a flange in & connect by drilling small holes & pinning similar to rivetting?
Perhaps others know better but I've never seen date teeth like this with what appears to be alternating small and large teeth, I don't understand the logic.
Regardless of that I think it's an extremely difficult repair and you might consider if it's absolutely essential to have the date working.
The engraved disc is relatively thin and will have been hammer hardened leaving it under internal stress, heating at silver solder temperature may well unlock that stress resulting in fractures or bowing and soft solder may not be sufficiently strong for the job.
I emphasise only my opinion but if a working date is essential I would consider making a "bracing" wheel which would hopefully be thin enough to fit between the date disc and friction spring & need not be permanently fixed to the existing wheel as there are existing holes that can be utilised.

Having a bit of fun, totally uneconomic and admittedly not pretty but it would be a shame to risk damage to the attractive practice engraving.

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Jevan

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I was told this had a balance wheel originally.
I also have a lantern clock which was once balance.

Many years ago I was told that there were so few original balance lantern clocks that you could count them on the fingers of one hand.

I think since then a few more have surfaced but non-converted balance lanterns remain rare beasts.

I would make a distinction between not converted as opposed to original balance & wheelwork because I believe lantern clocks are quite aggressive in terms wear and a completely original survivor would be an incredible find.

What with the precarious conditions that might be associated with wall clocks it seems if ever a clock was destined for extinction it was the lantern clock. ;)
 

Jezster18

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Perhaps others know better but I've never seen date teeth like this with what appears to be alternating small and large teeth, I don't understand the logic.

I hope this video loads, it shows why the teeth are cut one high one low.
Jevan got my head thinking, I was curious so had to get them out, construct a platform, using a carboard box upside down, putting the wheel pivot into it, a old artist brush, through the centre hole of the date ring, which sat on sellotape roll, to give height, & eureka it worked & shows, as the wheel turns the wedge cam fits the space between the teeth high/Low

Hi Jevan, thank you for your replies, I've took on board what you said, & i'm very grateful for your ideas.
I'm not doing anything with the date wheel, it's not important for it to work.
I'm having ago, at doing the rest & so far so good, I'm hoping to put it all back tomorrow & hopefully see if it works, the clock will not be run every day & if it does go to someone qualified, they won't have to spend hours getting the grime off, it's been a chore but rewarding.
 

Jevan

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A slight variation but with apologies if I have misread the video and we are describing the same scenario.

The date disc will have sixty two teeth and will be advanced twice a day, the engraved date is effectively moving from top to the bottom within the date aperture and that aperture is noticeably taller than it is wide.

I wondered if the shorter tooth was a method of reducing the vertical motion of the engraved date bearing in mind it must remain visible within the aperture for two advance actions rather than the more typical single action in traditional plated longcase clocks.

I imagine the engraved date will be biased towards the top of the date aperture in the morning & vice versa in the afternoon.
 
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Jezster18

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A slight variation but with apologies if I have misread the video and we are describing the same scenario.

The date disc will have sixty two teeth and will be advanced twice a day, the engraved date is effectively moving from top to the bottom within the date aperture and that aperture is noticeably taller than it is wide.

I wondered if the shorter tooth was a method of reducing the vertical motion of the engraved date bearing in mind it must remain visible within the aperture for two advance actions rather than the more typical single action in traditional plated longcase clocks.

I imagine the engraved date will be biased towards the top of the date aperture in the morning & vice versa in the afternoon.
Hello again Jevan,
I have totally taken on board everything you have said & I'm always willing to learn, you kick started me to look at everything in a different light.
I'm so far being careful that I don't bodge anything, & making sure it's reversible for someone with more knowledge in the future, to be honest I was worried about doing anything myself that might be seen as "look at what someones done here" I was about to get in touch with a repair service not far away to do all of the work, until your first reply.
I really like your drawings on how I could have repaired the date wheel, & i would have done it, I didn't realise about the stress that the date wheel would be under & I'm happy that I asked & you explained. I would have not wanted to destroy the engraving.
we see ourseleves as conservators while items we love are in our posession & hope that eventually they will go to similar minded people.
I thank you for educating me in your replies.
 

Jevan

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If I'm honest when I started the drawings I had not looked closely at the date wheel and assumed the shorter teeth were damaged rather than deliberate so I was assuming more than half of the teeth needed repair.
Later realizing your earlier post talking of five damaged teeth was accurate I felt my drawings were rather a case of overkill… but I had fun doing the drawings so posted them anyhow. :)

I am sure there are people with more skill than me that may successfully repair teeth such as yours and there is always the temptation to try for an invisible repair but I have witnessed some unfortunate mistakes and the older I get I tend to take the safer path.
 
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Jezster18

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If I'm honest when I started the drawings I had not looked closely at the date wheel and assumed the shorter teeth were damaged rather than deliberate so I was assuming more than half of the teeth needed repair.
Later realizing your earlier post talking of five damaged teeth was accurate I felt my drawings were rather a case of overkill… but I had fun doing the drawings so posted them anyhow. :)

I am sure there are people with more skill than me that may successfully repair teeth such as yours and there is always the temptation to try for an invisible repair but I have witnessed some unfortunate mistakes and the older I get I tend to take the safer path.
I had a neighbour many years ago, who asked if he could borrow feeler guages from me, I later saw him on his driveway with his engine out of his volvo estate, I went over & to my horror he had snapped my feeler gauges off, which were new about a week before.
I said you've ruined my feeler guages, he was using them on new rings on down the side of his pistons into the block & tapping the pistons down with the wood shaft of an hammer as he had nothing else to do them with & said I will buy you new ones. I said why didn't you use ring compressors? He looked at me & said Necessity is the mother of all invention. I always remember that day.
He had his engine in & running later that day.
 

Jezster18

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Very thrilled to see the pictures! I am almost certain its made by John Ogden the first one. What a beautifull movement and dial, does remind me on the early John Sanderson/ movements end dials as well. Certainly Quacker looking plain dial. Congrats, I love it! Would fit perfectly in my collection.

View attachment 692629
I'm no expert & it could be John or James senior, or James junior.
I've been doing as much research as I can, I've cleaned everything as it was thick with grime & dust, & also it lets you see more of the clock, now it's back together, I beleive it's somewhere between 1680 & 1710?
Its strange as it has the hammer on the right & also the lead weight hangs on the right & the lead counter weight on the left.
I'm attaching the case to the wall tomorrow & will then see if it runs, as I can see the crutch needs adjustment, it's not going to be used often to preserve it.
I hope you like the pictures, many thanks for all of the comments

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Jezster18

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Eureka moment, It's up & running, it will not be used on a permanent basis though, time to start on a different one now.
A special thank you to Jevan, I' am so glad I took my time & looked at everything again & went slow & steady, it's a good feeling knowing you've rescued a clock & listening to it & given it a new life.
Thank you for all of the likes & comments.
 

Jevan

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it will not be used on a permanent basis though
Every owner rightly decides whether to run their clock but in this case if determining factors are wear, a loud bell or the nuisance of daily winding then there's a hack.

Assuming you are confident with the going train repairs I see no reason, unless it is already carrying significant tooth or pinion wear, that this section of your clock is not as robust as any other working longcase clock therefore wear should not be a critical issue.

Consider isolating the strike by tying the fly to the movement plates, soft copper wire is ideal for the job.
The power reserve normally used in striking will now by utilized by the going train which in most cases of thirty-hour weight driven movements will result in at least seven days duration, of course it will not strike but it will only need winding once a week.

As an aside please note that the comments above are directed at the Ogden clock and are not necessarily applicable to all similar specification clocks, for example it is essential that the clock in question is of countwheel strike as opposed to rack strike.

I have a thirty-hour c1800 white dial longcase that has been running happily like this for more than twenty years.
 
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novicetimekeeper

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The traditional silencer for a thirty hour countwheel is simply to put a wooden clothes peg on the fly, no damage and easily removed. * days with countwheel I just don't wind the strike train and hang a lead doughnut on rather than the weight.
 
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