Lancashire watch co front set arbor and wind pw?

Discussion in 'European & Other Pocket Watches' started by Roboman, Aug 4, 2017.

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  1. Roboman

    Roboman Registered User
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    #1 Roboman, Aug 4, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2017
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] This is a picture of movement in a small table clock
    I know it not original to small bone or other carved momento mori piece
    Help?
     
  2. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    Hi Roboman, no it ain't. (American English.)
    Regards Ray
     
  3. Roboman

    Roboman Registered User
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    So was it built and plate changed
    arbor was placed on face?
    A Frankenstein?
    Uggg
     
  4. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    #4 Omexa, Aug 4, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2017
    Please don't use this word that is used in the American forum? Where is the photo? Not used by me or any serious English Watch collector. To me alterations are a part of the History and provenance of the Watch. Regards Ray
     
  5. novicetimekeeper

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    If you could post pictures using the little camera icon above the message box we could all have a look
     
  6. Roboman

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    #6 Roboman, Aug 4, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 4, 2017
    Sorry did not know but here are pics
     
  7. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    Hi Roboman, I love it! It may have had a Fusee in it in earlier times? How do you wing it? Regards Ray
     
  8. Roboman

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    #8 Roboman, Aug 4, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 4, 2017
    E bay from Germany but I have never seen a front arbor and wind on a movement like this - I even have a “Head” set movement (Turn dial instead of key and thats in back) here is dial Ill take a bigger one but I wish and hope to find a verge as it is too light and when opening will tilt (so I knew there was no verge in there but..Thats E bay
     
  9. Roboman

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    Oh sorry Ray Thank you for your help and yes it is a nice .800 silver statue (tested that) and I think horn but maybe bone or such
    Thank you
    Robert aka Roboman
     
  10. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    Hi Roboman, I love it even more! Regards Ray
     
  11. novicetimekeeper

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    looks the wrong colour for horn, if bone will have small black flecks where the blood vessels were. Is it ivory? (would have faced difficulty with customs but should easily show it is old enough.
     
  12. Roboman

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    Ray-I think it may be Ivory but bottom has a gloss not wax on it -will have to use magnification test and maybe pin for smell of bone when I take apart again. Without some rodico or tape set screws are very tricky-I really can’t sell it ever if Ivory even if its old so I will restore it over time or let it be-:)
    Rob
     
  13. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    #13 Omexa, Aug 4, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2017
  14. Roboman

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    Thanks
    i will check it out but im lost as to how this movement is kw ks with arbour
    thank you
    rob
     
  15. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
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    It is a simple matter to modify any SW/PS movement to be front wind and only a little more difficult to fit a square to the center arbor. Some reasonably clever watch tinkerer could have done it when the original fusee was lost or damaged beyond repair. There are also lots of appropriate loose fusee movement that could be used to make it a more appropriate combination. Ray probably has a dozen such movements. :)

    Ray might even have the original movement, but there would be no way to tell.
     
  16. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    Hi Tom, I do have a lot of Verge movements. Have a look at the strange Swiss or French movement. Regards Ray
     
  17. DaveyG

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    The movement was never a fusee. The LWC only made two fusee movements which were both full plate. This movement is a Lancashire Watch Company Type 20 which is very similar (almost identical) to the 16 Sz Elgin Model 13 (as an example). The movement was, originally a stem wind, stem set. It is know that there was collaboration between Elgin and the LWC but it is unclear whether these movements were made by Elgin in the USA or in England.
     
  18. Roboman

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    Thank you
    I suspected that but have seen some front set and wind ship watches etc. This has case screw openings
    I should have measured it when I had it unscrewed but it not too hard to do so again
    thank you very much
    and Ill think about changing it but Ray had a point ,"part of its providence.." :)
     
  19. Roboman

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    #19 Roboman, Aug 5, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 6, 2017
    Ray I believe it not elephant Ivory but perhaps from tusk ivory I have the inside pic
     
  20. Roboman

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    Wow
    thanks
    I truly appreciate your time
    rob
     
  21. Roboman

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    Dear Tom ( sorry I think Davey had said it was a type 20 Lancashire with reversed set and wind.
    what was the size of the Type 20 movement
    same as 16s
    I have to reopen it if I want to
    measure and entertain putting a Verge in.It easy but a bit worrisome as the crews go through the carved base
    Thanks
    Rob
     
  22. novicetimekeeper

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    It looks very much like elephant ivory, the alternative would be something like walrus tusk but probably too big for that.
     
  23. DaveyG

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    Rob, making the assumption that the watch movement is based on an Elgin movement it should be an American 16 Sz which is 43.2mm across the dial (pillar) plate
     
  24. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
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    I was commenting on the distinct possibility that the movement currently in the object is a replacement for a verge that was in there when it was made.

    I am reasonably up to speed on LWC. I am more interested EWCo but I have another Lancashire in the mail to use in discussions of the English machine made watch.
     
  25. eri231

    eri231 Registered User

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    Perhaps this dial will celebrate 1784, the year when it was the first balloon flight presented to the King of France. Curiously the Montgolfier brothers have never flown, because of a parent's ban.
    View attachment 352691
    regards enrico
     
  26. Roboman

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    Thats year it was sold as 1800
    Im debating a verge movement to restore to the way it most likely was
    Thanks
    Robo
     
  27. Roboman

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    #27 Roboman, Aug 6, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 7, 2017
    Tom
    This verge would work but what you said about the past of the watch is interesting
    I mean it tells great time and someone reversed parts plus added and arbor so Im impressed
    Here is the front verge im thinking but its pricey [url]https://www.ebay.com/itm/232416804657[/url]
     
  28. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    Hi Roboman, make sure that the distance between the Hand Setting and the Winding matches your Dial? You should be able to get a Working movement for about half the amount for a Complete Pocket Watch. Regards Ray
     
  29. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
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    Ray can correct me if I am wrong, but extending the arbor in the front of a fusee movement looks pretty easy. You would not need to find a front winding verge movement. The link you posted is to a live auction, so I will have to hide it until the auction is over according to the site rules. (Sorry).
     
  30. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    Hi Tom, it is possible but it would require some work. Best to get a Front Wind like the early McCabe on the left. Look what some fool has done to the Dial in the middle. Regards Ray View attachment 352756
     
  31. gmorse

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    Hi Tom,

    If you mean the fusee arbor itself, then extending that to enable front winding is non-trivial, and where a watch has been converted or re-cased, necessitating the arbor square to be at the other end, the whole fusee was typically replaced. Extracting the arbor from a fusee cone is practically impossible without destroying it. Fusees with a square at both ends were available from materials houses, the unwanted end was simply cut back to form a normal pivot. Better as Ray says, to start with a front-winding verge in the first place.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  32. Roboman

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    Thanks all sound advise
     
  33. Roboman

    Roboman Registered User
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    Ray you are right
    The guy selling is nice but here in US getting working movements is either shipping and customs from Europe collecters.etc
    I have trouble moving alot but in New York City there is a corner a watchmaker told me about where many watches are sold and parts etc so maybe
    Thank you
    Im learning (thick but resonable head)
    Lol
    Rob
     
  34. Roboman

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    Tom
    Thanks so
    Much!
     
  35. Roboman

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    Im still not sure but Im not selling it so matters
    Robomam

    - - - Updated - - -

    Sorry learning
     
  36. Roboman

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    Ray
    Only measurements I need would be distance between wind arbor and set
    Nut . The time will work anyway it is tightened into the clips(3) and place for a fourth
    Oh and double check on the 43.3mm movement front plate size
    Does that sound correct since there is no hinge ?
    Robo
     
  37. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User
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    If it isn't plastic then it is ivory, here that would not be a problem selling it as it is clearly old enough, but as you say well worth keeping anyway.
     
  38. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    Hi Roboman, sounds OK, but the thickness of the movement will be different; you may have to make New holding Clips? Regards Ray
     
  39. Roboman

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    Thanks Ray Im leaving it for now so thanks again
    i am looking for ideas about a case for verge repeater type where hammers hit bell in case (fairly sure thats the case)i posted under Norton verge
    hope you and yours are safe
     
  40. Roboman

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    You know I have some pre 1973 ivory befire ban that I bought only because to destroy seems a double injustice to the lovely animals even though im sure this was from a legal source and from natural cause ivory not poached etc.
    maybe Ill make a case from small rounded piece?
    hope you are well
    robo
     
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