Lamy a Hoorn, late 17th/early 18th century posted frame 30 hour

Discussion in 'Your Newest Clock Acquisition' started by novicetimekeeper, Aug 15, 2017.

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  1. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    I won this auction today at a bargain price, I'm very happy and look forward to trying to find out more about the clock and Mr Lamy.

    I am pretty certain it is David Lamy, who I believe to be a Huguenot from Dieppe.

    I have not found a record of him working in England, but this seems very much and English clock, albeit with some Dutch influence

    I have not yet worked out how the strike works, I think we need to wait till I collect it, however the auctioneer gave permission to use the pictures.

    Shimmystep spotted a snail, I see it now but don't understand it. There is no evidence that there was ever a rack on the back, and the layout appears conventional so the gathering pallet should be on the back where the strike great wheel is unless he managed to transfer that to the front with additional wheels.

    I've never seen a posted from rack on the front.

    What I think we can establish so far is the lack of a countwheel, and no evidence it is simply missing rather than never there.

    Now you have the pictures you can all join in and have as much fun as me without the expense (which was minimal)

    This all started because the auctioneers managed to list a picture of an empty case originally so I asked for a pic of the dial.

    313576.jpg 313577.jpg 313578.jpg 313579.jpg 313580.jpg 313581.jpg 313582.jpg 313579.jpg
     

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  2. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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  3. P.Hageman

    P.Hageman Registered User

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    Thats a steal Nick, congrats. I have looked for further information, but nothing sofar. I cannot find out how the striketrain is working either. Very interesting!!
     
  4. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    #4 novicetimekeeper, Aug 15, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 31, 2017
    Thanks Peter, and thanks for looking at it.

    You said if I got it cheap, I think I achieved that. :)

    I look forward to finding out more about this movement and tracing the maker and his history.

    I don't know how the strike works, why it looks so English but is signed of Hoorn, I don't even know if I get a pendulum and weight (worth £100 on their own)
     
  5. P.Hageman

    P.Hageman Registered User

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    #5 P.Hageman, Aug 15, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 31, 2017
    There is something seriously wrong with this movement I think. Its the place where its going to be soon, I think I know a Dutch collector where the movement would be best in its place, back to the Netherlands :excited:
     
  6. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    I still have my Dutch seaman's book (monsterboekje) though I don't have a current medical and my STCW95 has lapsed since January, but I think I can claim some credentials as technically I'm still part of the Dutch merchant navy :)
     
  7. P.Hageman

    P.Hageman Registered User

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    I think I know how it works. looking from the back of the movement, the left arbor is the lifting arbor. It lifts and then unlocks the the rack which is hidden behind the post. The unlocking of the rack is done by the kidney shaped (?) lever. The rack is connected to the arbor on the right which has at the front the finger which falls into the snail. The second or third wheel (hard to see) is lifting the rack on rotation. The kidney shaped lever is holding it in place (tooth by tooth) then when the rack is lifted up. Hope you understand what I mean.
     
  8. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    #8 novicetimekeeper, Aug 15, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 31, 2017
    you mean I have my third rack striking 30 hour with an unheard of internal rack for £100?
     
  9. P.Hageman

    P.Hageman Registered User

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    #9 P.Hageman, Aug 15, 2017
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    Ooooch, that hurts :clap:
     
  10. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    Hurts me too, I won't be allowed to let it strike, so if it is a rack it won't be allowed to tick!


    EDIT

    It makes sense what you say, it seemed very early for a 30 hour rack, but my earliest rack is also internal rack, that's an 8 day of about the same age.
     
  11. musicguy

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  12. P.Hageman

    P.Hageman Registered User

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    #12 P.Hageman, Aug 15, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2017
    Told you, best place will be the Netherlands :coolsign: But without a joke, I think it really has the rack behind the post. I am VERY curious if I am right because I have never ever seen such a striketrain. I will jump into it and look for some early Dutch movements to see if I can find something similair, but I doubt it.

    I found a picture of an early Dutch stoolklok which has a rach behind the post BUT is lifted by the second wheel. Compare it to your clock. Its a strange combination but this may work. 313594.jpg
     
  13. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    If you look at the pics, nothing shows that part of the movement, so to paraphrase Sherlock Holmes, when you have exhausted the impossible, only the possible, however improbable, is left.

    Edit> Given it has a snail, it isn't that improbable
     
  14. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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  15. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    One thing you do notice from the pics, that design of date ring/movement mount isn't suited to 300 years of wear. As the ring drops it is cutting a groove in the top dial tab.
     
  16. gleber

    gleber Registered User

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    Congratulations Nick! I've been lurking, but I am both jealous and intrigued.

    Looking forward to when you unveil the mystery.

    Tom
     
  17. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    It should be a lot of fun finding out about him, first is to find out if it really is David Lamy. I shall learn a lot about Huguenots on my travels I think, but whether I'll ever work out why it was made like this I don't know. First to collect it and prove the ideas of Peter and Kevin that it is a rack, I'm sure it is now I have looked at the pics again with their eyes.

    I've been all the way through Darken and Hooper, the authority on English 30 hours. Rack strike doesn't appear in the book until the 1720s and all the posted frame movements with rack strike have the rack on the outside at the back.

    I've contacted a museum in the Netherlands and a couple of dealers, they may know more.
     
  18. P.Hageman

    P.Hageman Registered User

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    Nick,
    Found a birth of Jeanne L' Amy, father Daniel L'Amy and Jeanne Griessiere in 1666 (Amsterdam). Name was spelled "Lamy" in 1676. In 1647 Marie L'Amy member of the Flemish church in Utrecht. So the Lamy's where early in the Netherlands, I think youre investigation has also to go to the familyname: L' Amy Nothing found in Hoorn by the way :screwball:
     
  19. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    I found this

    http://en.geneanet.org/search/?name=LAMY&country=NLD&region=NHO&place=Hoorn&ressource=arbre

    There is also a book about the Huguenots based on the diaries of Jacob Lamy of Dieppe who moved to Hoorn.

    David Lamy was born in 1669 I think and married in 1697. There is also a spelling Davit Lamij
     
  20. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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  21. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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  22. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    Found this list of clockmakers

    It shows David Lamy a Hoorn, no further information, but it does suggest that Lamy a Hoorn is David Lamy. That's a help, it confirms what I thought but does nothing to explain the clock

    http://users.ugent.be/~lgoukens/klokkenmakers.html
     
  23. ballistarius

    ballistarius Registered User

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    Could the rack/snail system in your clock be something similar to this?
    313684.jpg 313685.jpg 313686.jpg
    It is a French lantern of mine with the rare Chevalier de Bethune's escapement. (My apologies for the poor quality of pics. I can take better ones in case you 'd need them:cool:

    Aitor
     

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  24. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    similar in that I can't see the rack!
     
  25. ballistarius

    ballistarius Registered User

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    Here it is!;)
    313687.jpg
    Aitor
     

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  26. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    Ah yes, well in the case very similar. The Lamy has two arbours where normally you would see one on the hammer side, the one with the hammer is the lower square one. You can see a bend in the hammer shaft so that it does not hit the upper arbour when the hammer is drawn back. The rack is presumably on that upper arbour as on yours.

    Instead of a gathering pallet there may be a wheel with a pin as on my Baker with the internal rack, and what you seem to have there.

    Is yours French?
     
  27. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    Ah, I missed the text where you said it was French. Yours has the hammer on the right, mine on the left. Does that mean yours does not have a Huygens drive?
     
  28. ballistarius

    ballistarius Registered User

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    Nick,
    I cannot reach to see that wheel with a pin (Maybe tomorrow, with better ligth:rolleyes:)
    My clock has a Huygens drive indeed. The ratchet and click are atttached to the strike great wheel.

    Aitor
     
  29. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    That's how this one is but the hammer can only hit the inside of the bell if it is on the left as I understand it, but I'm not a clock repairer.

    Your hammer rotates though, so perhaps that action is different, not sure how it rotates, on my clocks that takes a crown wheel.

    It all makes you wonder about whether the Lamy is English, Dutch , or French, it seems a bit of each.
     
  30. shimmystep

    shimmystep Registered User

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    Nick, pretty sure you have a rack on the front of the movement. In the pic below you can see the rack tail resting on the 12 o clock plateau...
    313690.jpg
     

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  31. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    #31 novicetimekeeper, Aug 16, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 15, 2017

    How does that work then? The strike train is at the back, is the gathering pallet driven from the back?
     
  32. P.Hageman

    P.Hageman Registered User

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    Nick, I see no reason why it would not work the way I described it.
     
  33. shimmystep

    shimmystep Registered User

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    Ah yes sorry, of course. in the pic below, the yellow arrow shows the lever on an arbour, that has on its other end what I think goes to the rack tail. And I suspect that the red arrow points at the rack hook. Which is lifted by the lever at the blue arrow. How the rack is gathered, not sure

    313703.jpg
     

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  34. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    I think that the rack is going to be gathered by a pin on a wheel, that's how my Baker works with the internal rack. There is no way you can have a pallet on a protruding arbour as there is no way to drive it, so they use a wheel with a pin. The French seem to have done that too.

    It is, I think, as Peter described it. The rack had to be at the back and they sneakily stuck it inside to confuse us. The rack tail has to be on the front to land on the snail. On my others there is no rack spring, the rack falls under gravity.

    Edit> Isn't the yellow arrow pointing at the rack?
     
  35. shimmystep

    shimmystep Registered User

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    Yes, sorry, I said lever on the arbour where I meant rack on the arbour. I'm working rather late here on local NHS policy and dipping into this with poor focus. Looking forward to seeing the internal rack.
     
  36. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    No problem, you were the first to spot the snail!

    Next question is where and when was it made and why is it looking like this?
     
  37. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    I don't have it yet, but I have shared the pics with a couple of Dutch collectors familiar with David Lamy's work. They are very surprised by the movement.

    They are more familiar with his pendule religieuse but also some longcase. Nobody seems to have seen something like this before.

    It would be interesting to know which bit of the UK he had contact with and how this came about but I'm not convinced I'll ever know.
     
  38. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    Well I have it here. Case is a modern reproduction, the hood seems newer than the rest but it may be all made from parts, within the last 50 years I think.

    The prize for strike method identification goes to shimmystep, here is the snail.

    Gathering pallet was a surprise. There is a pin on that wheel on the back but I could not initially work it out, it turns out the wheel does two jobs. There is a small flag on the arbour which acts as the gathering pallet, and a larger pin on the wheel that acts as the stop when the rack is fully up. The teeth on the rack are tiny and there is not much scope for wear with this idea.

    The interesting shaped bit we could see from the back is the other end of the rack hook, the hook has a spring assist mounted in the top plate.

    There is one wedge missing from the posted frame which is annoying, but I have an old dialplate and I can make another wedge.


    314294.jpg 314295.jpg
     

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  39. Jim DuBois

    Jim DuBois Registered User
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    #39 Jim DuBois, Aug 23, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 15, 2017
    I am thinking that is the 1 o'clock step, not the 12 o'clock......
     

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  40. P.Hageman

    P.Hageman Registered User

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    Told you so :excited:: "I think I know how it works. looking from the back of the movement, the left arbor is the lifting arbor. It lifts and then unlocks the the rack which is hidden behind the post. The unlocking of the rack is done by the kidney shaped (?) lever. The rack is connected to the arbor on the right which has at the front the finger which falls into the snail. The second or third wheel (hard to see) is lifting the rack on rotation. The kidney shaped lever is holding it in place (tooth by tooth) then when the rack is lifted up. Hope you understand what I mean."
     
  41. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    Yes Jim, the snail is at the 1 oclock step, the hands are probably not lined up correctly, I marked where they were but they were probably wrong.

    The rack hook is on the kidney shaped bit as you say Peter. The amazing thing about the strike to my mind is the tiny teeth on the rack.
     
  42. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    A better pic of the rack.

    The large shape on the rack hook arm is clearly a counterweight to make sure the hook is held against the rack for gathering. I'm not sure if the spring assist is original, but it is held by a square headed screw which is always a good sign.

    The movement has a couple of unexplained holes and evidence of a repositioned bridge in the motion work but apart from a number of tooth repairs and possibly a new escape wheel it has got through 300 years remarkably unscathed.


    314362.jpg


    oh btw the strike is all working perfectly, timing train looks fine so it seems to be all good to go.
     

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  43. P.Hageman

    P.Hageman Registered User

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    Its a very interesting nice movement and I think this could be easely be late 17th century. French/Dutch/English influenced movement, try to find another one in a lifetime!!
     
  44. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    If it were English I would have said 1690-1700, but given it is an amalgam of styles I would not know where to place it.

    I agree, I don't think it likely I would ever see another the same, so it really fits with my interest in unusual 30 hour clocks.

    I would love to know more, I will take it to West Dean when we take the Knibb for evaluation, and it will go to the regional BHI meet later this year too.

    The dial engraving with the birds is very much like dials I have from Sussex and Kent, but birds were a popular feature on dials here and probably in other countries too.
     
  45. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    Well that's interesting Peter, one of your fellow countrymen who does appraisals for the museum I contacted says he believes the movement is English, originally countwheel strike, converted much later to internal rack in the Netherlands. He thinks the original movement much later than 1700 and the conversion was done in Holland between 1750 and 1830.

    What do you make of that?
     
  46. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    I am coming round to the idea of conversion, the rack strike would seem too early otherwise. My correspondent suggests between 1750 and 1830 for the mod.

    The modification must have included replacing the cruciform bars as far as I can see, and just using the original frame.

    The wheel driving the date is obviously fairly new, but these are often missing, the dogleg on the front cruciform bar to support the bridge is original to the bar, but the one on the back supporting the Dutch looking rack hook is newer.

    There is an impressive repair to the snail too.

    314461.jpg 314462.jpg 314463.jpg
     

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  47. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    Now I look at it on here with greater magnification I can see the front cruciform bar has been modified too, so definitely a conversion, definitely later, and probably nothing to do with David Lamy.

    I'll have a look at the rear cruciform under a lens to see if I can see evidence of the countwheel. This was an awful lot of work but I suppose brass was expensive, labour was cheap.
     
  48. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    #48 novicetimekeeper, Aug 27, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 31, 2017
    I appear to have had a senior moment. I had two clocks on the same day, one this the other the dialplate for the Richard Sill of Wigton.

    I thought I had seen the back of the chapter ring on this one but I was thinking of the Sill.

    Somebody asked for pics so I took it of (again I thought)

    It has had three sets of feet, the first set was sawn off, the next two sets soldered rather than riveted. One set gone, looks like they may have put them in the wrong place. This last set a perfect fit for the dialplate.

    I have always said the dialplate looks to belong to the movement, but clearly the chapter ring does not.

    That throws up all sorts of questions, because now it appears to be nothing to do with Lamy so was it ever in the Netherlands? The conversion work has Dutch elements, it does not feel English. The conversion also appears to have considerable age.

    However if the chapter ring has been added when was that done?

    It's still a very interesting buy for £100 but I really don't know what to make of it now.


    314539.jpg 314540.jpg 314541.jpg 314542.jpg
     

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  49. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    I have been studying this movement trying to understand what was done to convert it to rack from countwheel.

    I may need to ask in clock repair but I have a few things that confuse me.

    A normal countwheel strike has two arbours on one side and one arbour on the other. This does too but reversed. I have not yet found evidence the cruciform bars were altered for that.

    I have been looking for evidence of the arbour for the countwheel. There is none I have found, but there is an extra wheel now which has the rack stop pin on the outer and the gathering pallet pin on the inner, is that where the hoop wheel would go?

    I did wonder if the cruciform bars could be turned round but that would mean any wheels not on the centre line would need repositioning. The fly has been repositioned, are there others?
     

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