Help KWM Bushing Size Question

Dietofnothing

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Trying to figure this out & order some bushings. These bushings will be for American made mantle clocks (Ansonia, Gilbert, Sessions, & similar)... I’m getting some conflicting data? Maybe it varies on the clock, but for these clocks - is the bushing height (KWM American made) generally 1.4mm or 1.9mm? Or does it vary & you always have to measure the plates. I’m trying to see if it’s worth order an assortment, but if the height can vary - I’ll just wait & order exact sizes I suppose. I’m guessing if the bushing is too long, it’s better than too short - as you could just leave it long or file it?

thanks in advance all.
 

John P

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Timesavers assortment #11604 will cover most american clock movements.
 

kinsler33

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Press-in bushing height is mainly determined by convenience. If all you have are short bushings and a thick plate to bush, you can push in two bushings, one atop the other. If your bushings are too long, you can indeed file off the excess, but it's not particularly easy to do neatly. As for sizes, I keep a couple of one-week pill containers, but one will do at the start. Stock with 1.0mm to 1.9mm, which all use the # III reamer. Couple of other things: you can always broach out a bushing that's too small, and indeed you'll likely have to do this anyway if wheels don't spin freely in their new bushings. And, since outside diameters aren't as consistent as they ought to be, some press-in bushings will not seat firmly. But if your bushings stick out of the plate a bit you can rivet them over with a hammer on a flat anvil, and they'll stick tight pretty much forever. Generally a quick broaching of the bushing's ID is required afterwards.

I personally never had much luck with bushing assortments. I'll usually just purchase the Timesavers US-made bronze bushings (guessing at the heights I might need) in packs of 20 to keep my pill container filled up.

Mark Kinsler
 

shutterbug

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I use Bergeon and have the assortment that includes both long and short bushings. I probably use the long ones a couple of times a year. I buy replacements in packs of 100 and keep my inventory well stocked.
 

Dietofnothing

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Thanks all. I’ll go with Time Savers 11064 to start. Sounds like shorter bushings are more common - but isn’t critical & maybe they are interchangeable?
 

kinsler33

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Yup: short and long are interchangeable. The major difficulty with any press-in bushing seems to be the outside diameter. I don't truly trust any of them and haven't since KWM was introduced in the 1960's. (At that time there were no bushing machines: you'd just ream the hole by hand.)

M Kinsler
 

kinsler33

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I use Bergeon and have the assortment that includes both long and short bushings. I probably use the long ones a couple of times a year. I buy replacements in packs of 100 and keep my inventory well stocked.
Every so often I contemplate abandoning KWM for Bergeon, for I have some issues with KWM. Are there any good arguments for considering this further?

Mark Kinsler
 

kinsler33

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You don’t trust them because the size is inconsistent?
Yes. Some are difficult to insert and some can easily be pushed out when you're trying to get the pivot into them. The inside diameters can vary a bit as well, but that's not as critical. There's someone out there with a worn-out automatic screw machine.

Mark Kinsler
 

Dietofnothing

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Thanks. I ordered everything from Timesavers that was suggested here plus more. They seemed to be my best chance at a 1 stop shop.

One thing that isn’t clear is, if you need to file the old worn bushing hole equal and opposite to the worn part of the hole so the reamer will center, what file are you using?

I have an inexpensive set of “needle files” & ordered what appears to be the smallest files Timesavers has. They have a few shapes; but are listed as “2 mm”. Seems too big to shape the inside of an oblong hole that will ultimately be reamed to 2.7mm (KWM reamer size 3). Maybe you just use the tip of the file or these are the wrong files?
 

kinsler33

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Use these:


They last about forever (sometimes the tips will break off) and they will fit into any hole. They cut fast, and you can use them by themselves, in a pin vise, and I keep one chucked into my faithful $10 Harbor Freight bogus Dremel tool:


If you've just ordered from Timesavers you can often call them again and ask them to add things to your order if it hasn't gone out yet. They're on Mountain Standard time. Use the phone, not e-mail, for this. Otherwise you can likely find the reamers on eBay.

Mark Kinsler
 
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Dietofnothing

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Thanks Mark, actually I ordered those too. I read somewhere you shouldn’t use a broach to make the bushing hole bigger when you are trying to even out the worn out part prior to reaming - but using a file is better.

Maybe this is true in a perfect world - but I’ll use whatever fits. It looks like some people just skip this part and use a reamer from the start anyway - I guess it depends how worn the bushing is how much of a difference it could make.
 

kinsler33

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What you read is correct, but these little tools are closer to very thin diamond files (aka pivot files, only diamond) than hole-enlarging reamers. You insert them into the hole only to a depth that will permit the hole to be rendered symmetrical around the location of the original hole. That is, put the reamer partway into the hole, hold it against the _un_ worn side of the hole, and then scrape it back and forth three or four times. This should, with some luck, tend to center the reamer on the original hole. I generally use one of these chucked into the aforementioned rotary tool. There are also official pivot files, but I haven't used these.

Mark Kinsler
 

bikerclockguy

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Use these:


They last about forever (sometimes the tips will break off) and they will fit into any hole. They cut fast, and you can use them by themselves, in a pin vise, and I keep one chucked into my faithful $10 Harbor Freight bogus Dremel tool:


If you've just ordered from Timesavers you can often call them again and ask them to add things to your order if it hasn't gone out yet. They're on Mountain Standard time. Use the phone, not e-mail, for this. Otherwise you can likely find the reamers on eBay.

Mark Kinsler
I have a set of the diamond reamers, and they have served me well, although I find I use mine more for removing burrs from gun barrel breeches than for clock work.
 

kinsler33

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They work well for a surprising variety of jobs, but they can cut faster than you might imagine, so care is advised. They're exceedingly effective when just hand-held. In the bogus Dremel rotary tool thingy they work pretty well on plastic and wood. They quickly clog in soft materials, but still cut at a moderate rate, and then you can clean them without much trouble.

Mark Kinsler
 

shutterbug

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If you have an actual reamer and a way to lock the plate into position, you don't need to file the hole first. Use a center locator, clamp the plate and slowly "nibble" at the unworn side of the hole until the hole becomes round. Then you can add more pressure to finish it. The head stock and the plate must both be solidly in line with very little runout for this to work.
 

Dietofnothing

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Seems like there are a few people out there on You Tube just putting the KWM reamer in a drill press, eyeballing canter & dropping the drill press through the plate. I’m guessing this is not a good way to do things? It looks like an easy way to do things.

Also, when you pick your bushing, do you want the I.D. to be closest size bigger than the pivot or smaller (and then broach it out)?
 

MARK A. BUTTERWORTH

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When you use the drill press method, it is necessary to recenter the hole using a file. Once the hole is re-centered my belief is that the drilling will be on center. It actually is the easy way to do things.

For the smaller sized bushings, usually one can pick the size larger than the pivot because the bushing will compress and putting it into the hole. If you have a situation, where it is still too large you can always pop out the bushing and put in the one that is smaller.
 

kinsler33

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I use Mr Butterworth's method, but I've had better luck just chucking the reamer directly into the drill press. That adapter he uses--I used it too--occasionally lets the reamer drop out of sight amongst the layers of junk.

M Kinsler

I'll clean it all up someday.
 

shutterbug

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If you are not clamping the plates in place firmly, then yes - you have to file the hole in the equal and opposite direction from the wear. However, if the plate is clamped in place and you don't get too aggressive with the press pressure, you can nibble the hole without filing it first. Mark's method allows the reamer to find center from the filing without using clamps. Nibbling forces it to cut the unworn side of the hole first, then the worn side. The center position must be determined before clamping.
 

Salsagev

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I am having much troubles deciding my bushing orders because the one suggested above is not bronze (or should I even go with bronze?). I have read many previous threads but I think that may have confused me even further. Some say that you will use KMW reamer 1 or 2 or 3. Information varies from Butterbearings to screw in bushings. I don't know if I like bronze but from what I hear, it is superior and quality. I would like my work to last somewhat. Any ideas? Thanks.
 

bruce linde

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the different reamer sizes are for different outside diameters (OD) of the bushings. #3 is probably the most common, at about 2.7mm OD, #2 is smaller at about 1.8mm OD... and then you have all of the inner diameter sizes. the hora vienna regulator i just posted about took a bunch of 1.8mm bushings... but usually i’m using the #3 reamer. the knock on bronze bushings is that they’re harder and can cause pivot wear... and my thinking is i‘d rather deal w bushings than pivots. :)
 

Salsagev

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I am very surprised that your Hora clock needed bushings. May I ask why?

So the assortment stated post 2 would do for my American clocks and some sort of assortment for reamers 2 for my chime clocks and French stuff?
 

MARK A. BUTTERWORTH

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Having work last is not a function of using bronze or brass bushings. It is a function of how well the pivot is polished. If it is not polished properly, no bushing will hold for long.
 

bruce linde

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I am very surprised that your Hora clock needed bushings. May I ask why?
So the assortment stated post 2 would do for my American clocks and some sort of assortment for reamers 2 for my chime clocks and French stuff?

because pivot hole wear happens? and it had obviously never been serviced in its 100 year lifespan?

on the plus side:
- still ran great, now runs better
- great old brass to work w... easy reaming, perfect bushing fits, fun process
- excellent quality movement feels good in one’s hands
 

Salsagev

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Ok, I see.

I looks like bronze is more cheaper than brass for some reason.

What is really confusing me here is that timesavers seem to use the same pictures for assortments which makes me have to read each and every item.

Should I get KMW brand stuff or just some KMW size bushings?
Currently, this is my list for possible assortments.
Item 23889
Item 23888
Item 11604
Item 11664
Item 11605

Do the bushing assortment number correspond to the reamer size such as “Bushing assortment 1” will all use reamer 1? My life will be easier if it is...
 

Jay Fortner

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Most old American T&S plates are about .055" thick so the 1.4mm height bushings are just right for these. KWM 3.5mm and 2.7mm bushing will do any pivot save the winding arbors. 3.5mm for pivots over 1mm,2.7mm for pivots 1mm and smaller. If you want to reduce inventory buy 2.7mm bushings in .5mm ID,3.5mm bushings in 1mm ID and broach to size once installed. As Mark said polish your pivots to a perfect mirror finish. Use the fingernail test. Your fingernail should glide across the pivot with no perceived roughness. I use a leather buff charged with green(Chromium) compound. The green compound is a little more agressive than red rouge,less aggresive than white rouge. Do your polishing as you're disassembling the movement,before you clean everything in the U-sonic or whatever cleaning method you use. That assures you are not assembling the parts with compound stuck to the pivots and pallets.
Bronze bushings are harder and create less friction than brass. They are best used in high pressure areas such as second arbor pivots or areas where there is a shock load like strike trains where the train is locked by the gathering pallet. In this scenario you would only need bronze on the GP end of the arbor.
 

Willie X

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Kool, that reminds me of the prop Harley bike Barney Fife rode on the old Andy Griffin show. I love that sound track when he went flying down main street. Willie
 

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