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Kundo won't stay running
- Thread starter rjdj2000
- Start date
Well go to town find small files... come back, take fork off, look it over. Wasn't as bad as first thought so wiped it down and got maybe a small bur off, put it back on and it is sitting here on the desk running.... Only thing is, it can't stay here and I want it to run!! lol So I guess it will be locking the pendulum and taking it into it's permanent spot and getting it just off level like it is now (it ran that way before if I remember right) and see if it will run there. Once again, thank you all for your information. It sure is appreciated.
Guess will have the small files for another project now....
Guess will have the small files for another project now....
Sometimes the forks have dents in them and suspect its mostly from someone squeezing the fork against the pin in an attempt to adjust the gap. Files are handy so that's a win! I polish the forks with a rag wheel on the dremel.
Wayne
Wayne
Yeah I saw them there as well. Probably should of grabbed them. Really didn't do anything with the files as any of them were still too big. About all I did was gently drag a jewelers screwdriver over it and cleaned the gunk off of it that I thought was indentations in the fork. Put fork back on the suspension spring, made one last adjustment for beat and it stayed running for over a half hour. Dreaded moving it to where I am keeping it but I locked the pendulum up and took it to where it had sat idle for years. Tried to get it dead level, would not run, leveled about like it was on my desk and it is running as we speak. Not sure why it won't run dead center of the cup (no I haven't put a level on the plate, probably should) as I know the centering cup can get moved or might not be centered.
At any rate, it is running and will see if it still is in the morning.
Sometimes you pick up a rub around the locking plate. Center of cup might not exactly be center of lower plate, it happens if the columns are off plumb.
Wayne
Well a little update, had it running before bed last night and with starting to not feel good I turned in early. Got up this morning and it had stopped at about 8 pm so it ran about an hour. So I restarted it at 6:20 this morning and just before leaving for work at 7:20 it was still running. So not sure what is up with it. Not sure if the hands get in a certain spot and they somehow stop it or what. Guess will see when I get home tonight if it had ran through the day. (Oh and I did not oil the hand shaft or hour cannon before that comes up)
Since around 7:15 or so this morning. Not sure what it is doing or if I just don't remember setting the time on it. I'll probably set it tonight and see what it does by morning. It is just the last time I looked at it, it was about that fast compared to the mantel clock next to it.
Two things can be done to fix it. It all depends on if the escapement is correct. If not, then that needs to be fixed. Or possibly the fork is too low. Raising it by about a mm could help.
Kurt
Kurt
Welcome to the world of 400 day clocks. Its a common problem called "flutter" and can be very intermittent.
Like Kurt said, raise the fork. Also can check that the suspension upper block is not sloppy loose in its mount.
Wayne
Well, moved it back to my desk this morning and raised the fork a little. Went to reset time and it did it again. So raised it just a little more and it didn't do the fluttering. So got it centered in the cup in the base and I am going to leave it on the desk here to see if it will run. I believe the escapement to be original to the clock and it had ran before without issue, so I believe all that is correct. It is just placement of fork so it doesn't flutter. Hopefully I won't have to se the beat again as it was very good before, just a run-away on time. LOL (For my records it is now 7:02 on the clock as of this writing)
Expect to have to set or at least check the beat every time you adjust the fork height.
Wayne
Well for now it is still running as I can look in on my dogs while away and I pointed the camera to the desk where it sits. Can’t tell the time on it so can’t say for sure if it is fast or slow. I know when I had started it, I did listen for the tick-toc of itin relation to pendulum swing and for every one it made the pendulum stopped and reversed so I may still be in beat. Will be lucky if I am. I’ll just leave it for now to get a couple days on it to make sure I don’t gain an hour or better. Then I will know the flutter is gone and it will be down to adjusting pendulum to get it to the right time. Now about how much does the rating adjustment do on these compared to a regular clock?
Results vary, some clocks are very sensitive others not so much. Best practice is to start from running fast and slowly adjust it slow in an attempt to keep the adjustment deadband/slop out of the picture.
Wayne
Ok. Will see where it is at later today and if it isn’t too far off, will let it go until morning. Probably better to let it go a day at a time to adjust it anyways.
Remember you can do a quick stopwatch check of the pendulum over 8 beats. How close are you to 60 seconds?
Kurt
Kurt
Did not know that. So what you are saying is pendulum rotates back and forth 8 times has to be 60 seconds, if I am understanding you right. I will have to check it when I get home if that is the case.
As you get it closer for increased accuracy you can count for multiple minutes so any error would be amplified on the stopwatch.
Wayne
Wayne
Well as of this writing the computer shows 5:40 PM and the clock shows 6:01 PM. Tried the beat count and it did 8 in 57.62 seconds. So it is a little fast and since running this morning it would of probably gained that amount of time. Will adjust it and restart it, let it settle in a little bit then try another beat count to see how close I am to the 60 second mark.
Moving the minute hand when the pendulum is at rest or in the middle of its rotation can cause the movement to flutter. Before moving the minute hand, I always stop and hold the pendulum at the end of a rotation.
Ok. Will keep note of that. After resetting things last night, I get up this morning and it is still running and only about 8 minutes fast. So I am almost there. I did the beat count last night a couple different times and was at about 58/59 seconds so will slowly adjust things now until it is keeping correct time.
Well crap. Hopefully it isn't off by much as I am just thankful I got it this far. I probably won't have time to mess with it tonight as I have some other things that need to be taken care of tonight. Will probably let it run here a good day and then try to adjust the beat in it and try not to totally screw it up and have to start from scratch again.
From what you saw Wayne, which direction should I go to adjust the beat (when looking at back of clock) Left or Right? I know it is hard to see from the video. If anything I'll watch pendulum and listen for the tik-toc on it as I know it should be at the end of the swing.
I listen for the tic/toc and then measure the overswing which should be equal in each rotation direction. Viewed from above you have more overswing counter clockwise than clockwise, so you move the upper block a very small amount clockwise. So easy to overshoot these adjustments as there very small, few thousandths.
Wayne
Wayne A Well didn't have to do what was planned for tonight to I made a small adjustment and took a little video down from the top. When the fork jumps is exactly when the tic/toc happens. In the view you can see the pendulum swing as well. I think it is better as when I looked at it again before making the adjustment, yes there was more overswing on the one side. It looks pretty close, to me, now.
I think its looking better although I'm not accustomed to watching it from that perspective, prefer to see the EW or hear it. I'm using a beat amplifier because my hearing is not what it once was and its noisy in my shop. Amplifier makes it easy to just focus on paper degree wheel I always place under pendulum for setting the beat.
Wayne
Wayne
Ok. I think I am going to have to copy the guide that is in the book. I don't have a beat amplifier to run on it either. So I'll copy the guide and see what I can figure out but I think I am closer than before when you said it looked off.
Easy way to set the beat is the drop to drop method, just turn pendulum until one pallet drops, release the pendulum and it should just reach the other drop if set correctly without passing it or fall short. Using the paper degree wheel like below I try to get the overswing matched within a couple of degrees which should just happen if the beat is set.
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Ok. I will see what I can come up with to watch it and see how far it goes in either direction. Now that I have the time adjusted to where it is close, a minute slow right now, I can make small increments to that to keep the time where it should be. Outside of a Regula 25 movement, this is the first real movement/clock I have torn down and serviced/repaired. (I know foolish of me to do so but got to start somewhere right?) I am just thankful for those of you who have replied to this thread and for the knowledge that I have gained by doing so.
Just printed out a degree wheel and got it underneath. There was considerable excess swing to the one side but after a couple little adjustments I think she should be good to go as after each tic the ball that I caught at a certain degree, went about 30 degrees more then it went back the opposite way. Then on the toc, I caught a ball at a certain mark and it too went about 30 degrees more and then reversed. Had to watch it a handful of times to be certain of how much over swing I saw but both sides seem to be about the 30 degree mark. Will let it run overnight as I did adjust the pendulum a little to speed it up just a tad as I was slow after the major adjustments.
Everything needs to be spot on before you start. There's so little latitude and that's what makes them hard work. You're asking for a year of operation from a pretty ordinary size of mainspring. Quite apart from driving the escapement, the hands have to turn all those days from a single wind....... ! Lets say 50 times an 8 day clock with a very similar size of spring..... ! Friction everywhere..... and a beat adjuster that is far too course for what is needed. You're looking for equal overswing after the escape of both entry & exit pallets.
You want it on a firm shelf in a draughtproof place with even temperatures. These clocks don't like steep falls in temperature such as you get overnight. Some people say you don't want oil except in the mainspring. I usually try running the pivots dry to start with. Jury's out on that one.
Before you fit the anchor wind one turn and watch it spins easily and long exhausting the last dregs of mainspring power from a single turn.
The depth of the pallets is dead bee critical and most people tell not to mess with that - which rule it out of court by too wide a margin perhaps........ ? Just perhaps ....... because you really need to know what you're doing before you alter the depths.
When the escape comes, that fork needs to carry the pallet to the correct locking face before that EW has turned too far. So not too much of a "twang" from the torsion wire please. This means the height and even the angle of the fork is very critical. I can't explain it satisfactorily but we don't want energy that might cause any flutter in the suspension spring section that is above the fork. (Escape wheel bouncing more that one notch at a time). Try increasing the power by gently helping the minute hand, and watch the escape carefully as the torsion spring unfurls to its central position - as in flat. it will usually precipitate some flutter so that you then know what it is.
Ah flutter! How I hate thee!
Best of luck and remember, persistence, and luck all come into this.
BerryG
You want it on a firm shelf in a draughtproof place with even temperatures. These clocks don't like steep falls in temperature such as you get overnight. Some people say you don't want oil except in the mainspring. I usually try running the pivots dry to start with. Jury's out on that one.
Before you fit the anchor wind one turn and watch it spins easily and long exhausting the last dregs of mainspring power from a single turn.
The depth of the pallets is dead bee critical and most people tell not to mess with that - which rule it out of court by too wide a margin perhaps........ ? Just perhaps ....... because you really need to know what you're doing before you alter the depths.
When the escape comes, that fork needs to carry the pallet to the correct locking face before that EW has turned too far. So not too much of a "twang" from the torsion wire please. This means the height and even the angle of the fork is very critical. I can't explain it satisfactorily but we don't want energy that might cause any flutter in the suspension spring section that is above the fork. (Escape wheel bouncing more that one notch at a time). Try increasing the power by gently helping the minute hand, and watch the escape carefully as the torsion spring unfurls to its central position - as in flat. it will usually precipitate some flutter so that you then know what it is.
Ah flutter! How I hate thee!
Best of luck and remember, persistence, and luck all come into this.
BerryG
Well after making the adjustments the other day, it is still going and it is within 1 minute on time. Will let it run for a couple days now to see how it does before I move it back to it's normal spot. It sure is rewarding to take something, given to you by someone special to you years ago and get it back running. Once again, to everyone that commented, thank you for your wisdom as while it was a learning experience for me that I appreciate everything that you have said and I will remember it for the next one.
RJDJ2000
All the people of this Forum have been so generous and encouraging to me. I feel a debt like you do. If we can only encourage its something. I have moved on to encompass the strikers and chimers, alarms and 36hr jobs, the watches too when I don't shake too much, as well as the 400 day variety. They all have their weird side - even the quartz types - but so far there's nothing to tax one as much as these 400 day mechanical clocks. I can eventually "get inside" the operation of most escapements - at least inside my mind. However, the 400 day is much deeper to understand than it looks. The bane of my involvement has been flutter. Spasmodic flutter. There's your clock now maintaining, (no mean feat in itself), and then from keeping good regular time you get up one day and it has moved on a few minutes - just like that - and without a by your leave. It sniggers as you scold it. The wisdom is to raise the fork a little bit. Careful now as the suspension wire may be slightly marked and that's not good.
Do you see the slot in the fork? Is it smooth? Is it too wide or is it binding as it turns sideways? What should the clearance with the pin be? Would a tiny bit of fine oil help it or will it attract dust?
Can you see that as the suspension wire twirls it does more as you go downwards? (Well it must because at the top block it is nothing!). Can you see that the length of the pin means more leverage as it gets towards the top? Can you appreciate that the more work you ask of that pin - the the more pendulum rotation you will get? Until it can't do it and stalls. Are you able to appreciate this wrt FLUTTER? It's working backwards from there.
Ah flutter and you thought for a moment that I had forgotten thee! You can read elsewhere on the forum of my struggles with flutter. My theories on parasitic resonances between the fork and the top block.
The taller clocks are much better in this respect and my theory is that those resonances are further apart in frequency. However they are still there and always will be. Just don't make it too easy for it is the best compromise.
What value a hobby or job that does not challenge one? You are set to go mad anyway, be it from boredom or frustration! Go on come with me to the funny farm.
Best regards y'all!
BerryG
All the people of this Forum have been so generous and encouraging to me. I feel a debt like you do. If we can only encourage its something. I have moved on to encompass the strikers and chimers, alarms and 36hr jobs, the watches too when I don't shake too much, as well as the 400 day variety. They all have their weird side - even the quartz types - but so far there's nothing to tax one as much as these 400 day mechanical clocks. I can eventually "get inside" the operation of most escapements - at least inside my mind. However, the 400 day is much deeper to understand than it looks. The bane of my involvement has been flutter. Spasmodic flutter. There's your clock now maintaining, (no mean feat in itself), and then from keeping good regular time you get up one day and it has moved on a few minutes - just like that - and without a by your leave. It sniggers as you scold it. The wisdom is to raise the fork a little bit. Careful now as the suspension wire may be slightly marked and that's not good.
Do you see the slot in the fork? Is it smooth? Is it too wide or is it binding as it turns sideways? What should the clearance with the pin be? Would a tiny bit of fine oil help it or will it attract dust?
Can you see that as the suspension wire twirls it does more as you go downwards? (Well it must because at the top block it is nothing!). Can you see that the length of the pin means more leverage as it gets towards the top? Can you appreciate that the more work you ask of that pin - the the more pendulum rotation you will get? Until it can't do it and stalls. Are you able to appreciate this wrt FLUTTER? It's working backwards from there.
Ah flutter and you thought for a moment that I had forgotten thee! You can read elsewhere on the forum of my struggles with flutter. My theories on parasitic resonances between the fork and the top block.
The taller clocks are much better in this respect and my theory is that those resonances are further apart in frequency. However they are still there and always will be. Just don't make it too easy for it is the best compromise.
What value a hobby or job that does not challenge one? You are set to go mad anyway, be it from boredom or frustration! Go on come with me to the funny farm.
Best regards y'all!
BerryG
Glad you got it running and glad we could help. There s special sense of satisfaction for all of us when an old clock comes back to life for someone for whom it has special meaning. It was the thrill I got when I finally successfully repaired a 400-day clock I'd inherited from my grandfather that got me going in this wonderful hobby.
Please consider becoming a member of the NAWCC - many people here share their wisdom and experience freely but it costs money to keep these forums running and available to any and all. Think of it as tuition in the best horological school on the planet.
Please consider becoming a member of the NAWCC - many people here share their wisdom and experience freely but it costs money to keep these forums running and available to any and all. Think of it as tuition in the best horological school on the planet.
I have thought of becoming a member, actually the local chapter president has tried to get me to join as well. I probably will here once the holiday gets past us. I guess I got the bug from my dad who used to repair clocks and watches (before my time) and then he sold all of his stuff to my Great Uncle who then repaired clocks for many years. I wished I could of gotten things when he passed, but that is a whole nother story that I am working on but it is a slow process trying to find out what attorney has my Great Aunt & Uncles paperwork.
Think everyone here on the forum shares a bit of your happiness as well. Always good to see others succeed in getting there clocks running. It's no small task to get one up and running again and it's much easier to talk someone through it that has a bit of the knack for it. We all started with that one clock and the first thing you know, they multiply.
Wayne
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Multiply? No…. Say it isn’t so. Lol. Already have 8 or more and I need to get the crystal regulator done that was my dads but I think I am going to let someone else do that one. Don’t feel that comfortable doing it myself right now. With having the original mercury pendulum in it also.
So far I have done this one and a cuckoo movement. I have a 3 train mantle clock that needs to be cleaned but I need to build a spring wonder first before I tackle that one. It has a balance wheel escapement so that should be interesting.
I am always watching on one auction type site for some deals and have seen a bunch of Schatz, Kundo anniversary clocks on there but I don’t trust them shipping them. Would hate to have the glass dome get wrecked because they didn’t secure the pendulum or something. I have gotten a couple cuckoo clocks off there and just recently got a quite large, 20-1/2” tall one without the topper. So now I need to find a topper for it. Lol
Oh Wayne - don't they just. {Multiply). I think they even argue with each other in the night. They certainly gang up on me. Best rgds. BerryG
Yes, they do indeed multiply! Have 40+ 400 day minature and midget clocks running, I try not to count them. Have other types of clocks as well and for me one of my favorite aspects of clocks is the repair of them. Have one platform balance three train clock . Platform is mostly jeweled pivots but the input wheel and it was worn out, smallest bushing I ever made, fun! One of my favorite escapements is the floating balance, quite accurate and rugged enough to give away.
Had mixed results on shipping clocks but mostly good if I give them plenty of instructions. Still theres the guy that literally throws your clock in an empty box and ships it.
Spring winder is just about a must have if your going to get into this. I built mine out of a mix of versions I saw and a few changes I wanted.
Wayne
Yeah, after doing this small spring by hand, I need one. I managed to do it, but getting it in was harder as I had to put the arbor in and try to turn it enough to get the last bit into the barrel. I plan on doing one like the Joe Collins one and adding things that I think would be nice. Once I get it done, I know it will be helpful.
Wayne et al;
That's a wonderful madness that you have there. A glutton for punishment and more torture. Unless and until someone dreams up a simple interlock that will prevent flutter - I will resist more mechanical torsions.
How come the Atmos claims are so good? Its a heavy disc type pendulum, well constructed weight adjusters, with fine tuning adjustment of the torsion spring length. They are kept wound to a fairly constant drive force by the bellows BUT..... !
I put a small elastic band around the ball type clusters. I fit, (attach with Rodico), a thin plastic air vane to the anchor arbour to resist flutter. (Change the natural resonance downward). Sometimes I use small balls of Rodico on opposite weights (bobs) to bring a slightly fast pendulum down to time. If you count the rotations over two or three minutes and watch the pendulum reversing - you will see any discrepancies accumulating against a stop-watch.
It will also help to wind an appropriate number of clicks to keep the mainspring in the middle of its wind EVERY MONTH to keep the power very level!
When you set the time almost any running clock will flutter as the torsion spring unwinds to the centre (flat) state. Its a symptom of excessive power off the EW. It just has to be the best clue to what is happening? Just consider that a mo. That "twang" I mentioned in an earlier post is your enemy as it excites the resonance in the short section above the fork. Check? Hence we need the normal power to be constant AND we need the energy in the spring to be just enough to carry the pallet to the next lock BEFORE that EW turns too far. I don't have any more answers but I'm willing you to run with this and come up with something... right. Due fame and a place in history awaits you - Honest!
Don't mind me - I'm afflicted and infected with all 400 of those daze....!
Rgds BerryG
That's a wonderful madness that you have there. A glutton for punishment and more torture. Unless and until someone dreams up a simple interlock that will prevent flutter - I will resist more mechanical torsions.
How come the Atmos claims are so good? Its a heavy disc type pendulum, well constructed weight adjusters, with fine tuning adjustment of the torsion spring length. They are kept wound to a fairly constant drive force by the bellows BUT..... !
I put a small elastic band around the ball type clusters. I fit, (attach with Rodico), a thin plastic air vane to the anchor arbour to resist flutter. (Change the natural resonance downward). Sometimes I use small balls of Rodico on opposite weights (bobs) to bring a slightly fast pendulum down to time. If you count the rotations over two or three minutes and watch the pendulum reversing - you will see any discrepancies accumulating against a stop-watch.
It will also help to wind an appropriate number of clicks to keep the mainspring in the middle of its wind EVERY MONTH to keep the power very level!
When you set the time almost any running clock will flutter as the torsion spring unwinds to the centre (flat) state. Its a symptom of excessive power off the EW. It just has to be the best clue to what is happening? Just consider that a mo. That "twang" I mentioned in an earlier post is your enemy as it excites the resonance in the short section above the fork. Check? Hence we need the normal power to be constant AND we need the energy in the spring to be just enough to carry the pallet to the next lock BEFORE that EW turns too far. I don't have any more answers but I'm willing you to run with this and come up with something... right. Due fame and a place in history awaits you - Honest!
Don't mind me - I'm afflicted and infected with all 400 of those daze....!
Rgds BerryG
Berry, if it was too easy it would not be fun. 
Flutter can be defeated, but temperature changes are the weakness of most 400 day clocks. The horolovar suspension springs are supposed to have a flat modulus of elasticity so ambient temperature changes don't affect spring rate. I've tried freeze spray on one horolovar suspension spring before and the rate did not change, so it seems to be true. Now the pendulums are another story, just brass which is highly affected by temperature.
The Atmos is a different beast, its kept fully wound for constant power and from what I have read there suspension springs are specifically processed to have a negative modulus of elasticity which compensates for the pendulum thermal expansion coefficient. Almost makes me want a little heat treat oven.
Wayne
Flutter can be defeated, but temperature changes are the weakness of most 400 day clocks. The horolovar suspension springs are supposed to have a flat modulus of elasticity so ambient temperature changes don't affect spring rate. I've tried freeze spray on one horolovar suspension spring before and the rate did not change, so it seems to be true. Now the pendulums are another story, just brass which is highly affected by temperature.
The Atmos is a different beast, its kept fully wound for constant power and from what I have read there suspension springs are specifically processed to have a negative modulus of elasticity which compensates for the pendulum thermal expansion coefficient. Almost makes me want a little heat treat oven.
Wayne
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