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Kundo won't stay running

tracerjack

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At least take off the barrel cap and see how the mainspring lubrication looks. If it is dried green gunk, the movement won’t have enough power to work. You will have to take the mainspring out and clean it. It can be done by hand. Not ideal, and you have to respect even small springs, but it’s not difficult to do. If it just looks dry, you could add drops of oil to the edge of the coils. I’m told it works it’s way down. Only occasionally have I found one swimming in oil. A paper towel would pick up the excess.
 
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Schatznut

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True. I know this one is wound so with everyone's post about the suspension spring and cleaning it, that is what I am going to do. I am afraid though that I don't have a winder to do anything with the main spring. So for now, I'll slowly let it off in the clock before I take everything apart to clean it. I will check it though to make sure it is good shape but I believe it is.
I understand your hesitation to take on a mainspring overhaul without a proper winder. But consider that the petroleum-based oil in there is what, 60-70 years old, and probably has long since taken on the consistency of tar. It is likely gluing up the mainspring and costing the movement lots of power that a 400-day clock doesn't have to waste.
 

rjdj2000

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I understand your hesitation to take on a mainspring overhaul without a proper winder. But consider that the petroleum-based oil in there is what, 60-70 years old, and probably has long since taken on the consistency of tar. It is likely gluing up the mainspring and costing the movement lots of power that a 400-day clock doesn't have to waste.
Actually my Great Uncle who gave this to me repaired clocks for a living and we got this in 2002. So I doubt it has been that long but I will take a look at it once I get to tear it apart. Hopefully, if anything, it is just a little dry and can add a very light application of oil to the spring.
 

Schatznut

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Actually my Great Uncle who gave this to me repaired clocks for a living and we got this in 2002. So I doubt it has been that long but I will take a look at it once I get to tear it apart. Hopefully, if anything, it is just a little dry and can add a very light application of oil to the spring.
OK, so the oil is only 20 years old or so. Where does it go? It doesn't evaporate; it turns to glue and adding more oil is akin to adding solvent - it will soften up the glue for a while, but pretty soon, it's glue again. I hope you're successful in rejuvenating the mainspring for a while, but if the clock doesn't perform well, that's because the power is going somewhere other than where it's needed, and the mainspring lubricant will be one likely suspect.
 

Dells

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Actually my Great Uncle who gave this to me repaired clocks for a living and we got this in 2002. So I doubt it has been that long but I will take a look at it once I get to tear it apart. Hopefully, if anything, it is just a little dry and can add a very light application of oil to the spring.
If you do a search on here there are plans to make a mainspring winder.
 

tracerjack

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If this is the only clock you plan to work on, I would remove the mainspring by hand. There are videos online showing how it is done. To me, hand winding is certainly better than not servicing the mainspring at all. If you plan to service more clocks, definitely make or buy a winder.
 
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rjdj2000

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If this is the only clock you plan to work on, I would remove the mainspring by hand. There are videos online showing how it is done. To me, hand winding is certainly better than not servicing the mainspring at all. If you plan to service more clocks, definitely make or buy a winder.
No, there will be others that I will do over time, actually I need to take a look at a sessions movement in my mission clock as the strike side of it has gone all sorts of wonky and I need to service the movement in my sessions calendar clock my dad had that hasn't been serviced for the past 30 years but it just runs fine. I plan on making one of the Joe Collins winders that is pinned to the top but I just have not had the time as when I do make one, I planned on making one out of aluminum. Probably will get some fancy engraving on it as well but right now the shop that I work at is so busy that I do not have the time to run the parts to make it through the machines right now.

I will lookup how to do it by hand though. As I know it should be done if I am taking it all apart to clean anyways and I am the type of person that doesn't like to do a half-a$$ed job on something. Especially something like this that could be a critical part of it to make it all work properly.

Jeff
 

KurtinSA

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When removing one by hand, be careful for yourself as well as be aware that it is possible to cone a spring. You have to bend the spring out of plane to remove by hand...the spring doesn't really like that and you may cone it. It is surprising how much the spring can take of that...I've had to severly stretch a spring like that whenever I eff up and manage to lose a spring inside the sleeve on my spring winder. Nothing I've been able to do other than to continue to wind the spring and push it out of the sleeve. Other methods suggested in the past have not worked.

Point is, the spring can be damaged if man handled by hand.

Kurt
 
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Dells

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If you are going to remove mainspring by hand I would suggest using leather gloves and then get a new Horolovar spring as they are wound small enough to go in barrel before you remove the wire retainer again not ideal practice but at least the mainspring won’t be misshaped.
 
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rjdj2000

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Well have gone and done it. It is apart to at least have a look at things. Took pictures along the way as well so hopefully with them and the book, I will be able to put this back together successfully. So far everything that I have looked at, looks good, just dirty. What is a good off the shelf solvent that I can use to clean this with? I know the best way would be an ultrasonic cleaner with the proper cleaning fluid but I do not have that. Also I’d like to clean/polish the base before assembly. I have what is attached in the picture below that my dad used to use to polish brass but I think it is going to take something a bit stronger to clean the brass first.

6642C00B-071A-41E5-815A-72F853C4A940.jpeg
CDA211E9-0C0A-4669-A11E-1E6205BE735C.jpeg
A206C909-0432-46E7-8ABA-86FDC2041BB4.jpeg
2697D6F4-9A2F-49A9-9E5E-45E75197CA83.jpeg
 

tracerjack

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For cleaning, I use liquid dish soap and hot water, my pegging sticks and a soft toothbrush. They do a fine job of getting the parts clean. It will not make the parts shiny. After they are clean, then I polish. For very heavy tarnish, I will use Brasso with fine steel wool, but only if I can safely wash the Brasso off, since it contains ammonia. I prefer Flitz or Simichrome with a cotton rag for lighter tarnish. For me, Flitz seems a bit faster cutting through the tarnish, but I prefer the higher shine Simichrome gives on that final buff. The Never Dull, if it is a pre soaked wool that I am thinking of, is great for sprucing up after something has already been polished but is beginning to again tarnish. If Never Dull is a paste, then I am thinking of the wrong product.
 

Dells

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I use brake cleaner to remove old oil and then as tracerjack washing up liquid and hot water ,
If heavy tarnishing I do use the ultrasonic but with 10% ammonia but the most important thing is make sure you dry everything well , I use a hair drier.
By the way make sure you don’t loose the tension washer that is on the centre arbor behind cannon pinion there may also be a flat washer as well.
Dell
03071F40-E5D9-41F1-87A3-9F2EDF458A07.jpeg
 

Schatznut

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I agree with Dells on all points - especially about the pair of washers on the center arbor.
 

rjdj2000

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For cleaning, I use liquid dish soap and hot water, my pegging sticks and a soft toothbrush. They do a fine job of getting the parts clean. It will not make the parts shiny. After they are clean, then I polish. For very heavy tarnish, I will use Brasso with fine steel wool, but only if I can safely wash the Brasso off, since it contains ammonia. I prefer Flitz or Simichrome with a cotton rag for lighter tarnish. For me, Flitz seems a bit faster cutting through the tarnish, but I prefer the higher shine Simichrome gives on that final buff. The Never Dull, if it is a pre soaked wool that I am thinking of, is great for sprucing up after something has already been polished but is beginning to again tarnish. If Never Dull is a paste, then I am thinking of the wrong product.
Tracerjack,

Yes the Never Dull is the wool/cotton type stuff. I will look today for the others you have mentioned as I would like to clean up the base before I assemble things later on. I will go ahead and clean what I can for now and see how things come out.

Dells, there was no washer like that on mine. A very small washer between the gear and plate but that was all. That is all the Horolovar book shows for mine also.

Also, did pop cover on mainspring barrel and yes this will have to be cleaned. So now it is time to get creative about getting this out safely or very cautiously do it by hand as it can be done but slowly working it out.
 

rjdj2000

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Here is what I have. Just the little washer and this spring in the center arbor for minute hand.
59CDB85F-881B-4A3F-9BDF-50730611F80C.jpeg
A0638364-537D-4B94-BCD2-6CDF2C8FA434.jpeg
 

Dells

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Here is what I have. Just the little washer and this spring in the center arbor for minute hand.
Strange the one I just done had the tension washer.
I use Peek for polishing then I lacquer the base with Mohawk lacquer for brass.
FDFE093E-CA86-48D9-BD9D-213F5B088A48.jpeg
 

rjdj2000

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Yeah, not sure as I have everything the book said I am supposed to have. I also mic'd the suspension spring in between the fork and top block and it measured 0.0030 which would be a 'lighter' spring than what should be in this by the book. So the 0.0032 ones I got match the book and the plate matches the 1380 in the book as well.
 

Schatznut

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I've never seen a hand tension spring arrangement like the one in your photo - very interesting!
 

Dells

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Yeah, not sure as I have everything the book said I am supposed to have. I also mic'd the suspension spring in between the fork and top block and it measured 0.0030 which would be a 'lighter' spring than what should be in this by the book. So the 0.0032 ones I got match the book and the plate matches the 1380 in the book as well.
See how it runs with a 0.0032” because it’s easy enough to thin the spring if needed.
Dell
 

rjdj2000

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So I got everything washed (dish soap & warm water) then blew it off a little then hit it with a hair dryer to be sure everything was nice and dry. So now I am down to the elephant in the room. The mainspring. What is best to clean these as I know steel will rust and spring steel will rust quicker than plain steel (I've seen it before) I know about what oil to use on them and I know it is not to be dripping wet, just a nice even coating on them. Was going to try to come up with something to make a makeshift winder, but I don't have everything to do it. So it is going to be a hand take out job for now. If I go slow and easy, it should work just fine. If not, then it is a 19-38 I'll need to order to get this back together.

IMG_9587.jpg
 

Schatznut

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So I got everything washed (dish soap & warm water) then blew it off a little then hit it with a hair dryer to be sure everything was nice and dry. So now I am down to the elephant in the room. The mainspring. What is best to clean these as I know steel will rust and spring steel will rust quicker than plain steel (I've seen it before) I know about what oil to use on them and I know it is not to be dripping wet, just a nice even coating on them. Was going to try to come up with something to make a makeshift winder, but I don't have everything to do it. So it is going to be a hand take out job for now. If I go slow and easy, it should work just fine. If not, then it is a 19-38 I'll need to order to get this back together.

View attachment 737954
It's slow and easy right up to the point where everything happens in about three milliseconds. Please use leather gloves, arm and eye protection. Once you get it out, mineral spirits and folded strips of paper towel will generally clean up the mainspring; if there is residue that won't come off easily, use a little 0000 steel wool soaked in solvent to make it come loose. Especially if you use steel wool, make sure you get the spring perfectly clean before reassembling it. With mineral spirits you don't have to worry about rust, as it leaves a very light film on the surface. Good luck with it!
 

KurtinSA

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I too wipe down my main spring first with a paper towel, then 0000 steel wool and even use a piece of Scotchbrite pad. Then I soak the main spring in a shallow tub of a 6-1 mix of warm water and Simple Green for about an hour. Then I blow dry the spring and put my favorite mix of oil on the spring. I do this when I'm ready to put the spring back in the barrel. I don't want to do all the cleaning and then let it sit out for hours or overnight. Once it's oiled and back in the barrel, it's pretty well protected.

Kurt
 

rjdj2000

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Thanks guys for the info and help. Schatznut yeah I know how that goes. Happens quite regularly at work... Going nice and slow milling a part and before you can get a chance to hit the button, all is lost. I just need to work the first coil out easily and I think I can work it the rest of the way out without mangling it. If I do, then it is a new mainspring and building a proper winder. I did see a video when I was looking on how to do it by hand where a guy used a 3/8 ratchet extension and a deep well socket that would hold the 'key' that is used in a hand type of a winder. It had multiple sizes, so I may go that route when I build mine and not mess with a tap handle in the design in the sticky in the repair area.
 

rjdj2000

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And..................... We have success! One spring out and of course it was all going good till about the last 2-3 rounds and the barrel slipped and whizz!! But all is good and the spring is out, not coned. Does it look like It should be bigger though? It measures from the end that hooks in barrel to the opposite side of it at about 4-3/4"

If you think it should have unwound and be larger diameter than this, I'll wait and get a new spring as this one has been wound under tension for the past 15+ years without relaxing any.

IMG_9588.jpg
 

Wayne A

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Length looks ok to me. Typically 400 day clocks only need about 4-5 turns of power to run a year.

Wayne
 

rjdj2000

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Length looks ok to me. Typically 400 day clocks only need about 4-5 turns of power to run a year.

Wayne
Ok. Sounds good. Will get it cleaned and re-oiled and back in probably tomorrow as it is getting to be dinner time and just gonna relax forr the rest of the evening. Tomorrow will be trying to get this all back together and hopefully running again.
 

KurtinSA

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You should clean a new spring then oil it before putting in the barrel.

Kurt
 

Schatznut

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Agree with Wayne - looks fine. I'd use it.
 
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Dells

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When you stretch out the mainspring to clean it you’ll find that it will loose any set it has , I only replace if they are damaged, I think I have only replaced 2 and I have repaired a lot of clocks.
Dell
 

rjdj2000

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Well I managed to find what I needed to finish the assembly today on this. Yesterday I worked on cleaning up the base and plates. Took tracerjack suggestion and was able to find Brasso here. Worked quite well, just had to use a bit of elbow grease to get it clean. Then put an application of Never Dull on it and buffed it up. Washed plates after cleaning with soap and water. Dried them and got to work on getting mainspring back in barrel. I will state that now I am going to be making a spring winder if it is out of craft sticks!!! That was a workout in itself getting back in there by hand. Hands started cramping up by the time I got to the end. Had to put the arbor back in and twist it (probably not a good idea) but got the first part small enough to slip into the barrel. Phew! Not doing one of them by hand again, will guarantee that.

Anyways, got it all back in and the cover on. Then the fun part of putting everything back together. With the pictures I took, before removing back plate and after removing back plate I was able to get everything back into position and the back plate back on. I will be probably doing the suspension spring tomorrow as there is a bunch of other things that I need to take care of today. So a thank you to you all who have guided, recommended oils, etc. I truly enjoy doing these and the fun part is yet to come of re-attaching the suspension spring without wrecking it. Good thing I have 3 LOL. Will try KurtinSA method of hanging the pendulum back on as well. Just going to need to check the bottom pin for the knurling and file it off if it is. As it was a little hard getting out but it popped out somewhat easy though.

Thank you to all again!

IMG_9589.jpg IMG_9590.jpg IMG_9591.jpg
 
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rjdj2000

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Well this morning I set out to get the suspension spring done and installed. Laid everything out and took apart the top block, bottom block and removed the fork. Put new one in top block and secured it. Laid it on the diagram in the book, snipped off the excess, mounted bottom block and fork. Using part of KurtinSA method of getting this back in, I locked pendulum into it's home. After getting the bottom block down into pendulum, I got fork positioned and screw into the top block. Now to put pin in bottom. Tried to lift spring and collar to put it in but no go. So looking at it, I could put pin in through the spring. Got it inserted just fine. Now to see if it is too long, unlocked pendulum and it was about 1/8" off the bottom in the centering cup. So far so good. I am now down to getting it to stay running. I only went about 1 turn when I started the video but as I am typing this, it is slowly coming to a stop. Will have to look in the book about getting in beat. If there is something that you all see, please let me know. I did not touch the adjustable pallet when I took this apart. It is set where my great uncle would have set it before we were given the clock.

I tried to video it, below, and tried to get escapement and pallet to be shown, hard to do on the phone LOL. So at least I have it back together and now it is just down to getting it to stay running. Oh, also I did not wind up the mainspring very much as it was said I think earlier in the thread that it didn't need to be fully wound to run a year.

 

Dells

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Well this morning I set out to get the suspension spring done and installed. Laid everything out and took apart the top block, bottom block and removed the fork. Put new one in top block and secured it. Laid it on the diagram in the book, snipped off the excess, mounted bottom block and fork. Using part of KurtinSA method of getting this back in, I locked pendulum into it's home. After getting the bottom block down into pendulum, I got fork positioned and screw into the top block. Now to put pin in bottom. Tried to lift spring and collar to put it in but no go. So looking at it, I could put pin in through the spring. Got it inserted just fine. Now to see if it is too long, unlocked pendulum and it was about 1/8" off the bottom in the centering cup. So far so good. I am now down to getting it to stay running. I only went about 1 turn when I started the video but as I am typing this, it is slowly coming to a stop. Will have to look in the book about getting in beat. If there is something that you all see, please let me know. I did not touch the adjustable pallet when I took this apart. It is set where my great uncle would have set it before we were given the clock.

I tried to video it, below, and tried to get escapement and pallet to be shown, hard to do on the phone LOL. So at least I have it back together and now it is just down to getting it to stay running. Oh, also I did not wind up the mainspring very much as it was said I think earlier in the thread that it didn't need to be fully wound to run a year.

A video of how to set the beat well two really.

 

KurtinSA

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If you just put the lower pin through the spring to engage the block, you won't have the proper tension with the lower block...the lower collar needs to be above the pin to capture it. It is difficult hold that collar up so the pin to be inserted. I have used my fingernails to raise the collar and then hold it up with one of my tweezers. That then frees my hand to slip the pin under the collar and into the hole in the block.

That said, I suppose if it fits and stays there, it's OK. The collar covering the ends of the pin is supposed to keep the pin in place since it wouldn't be able to slip either way.

Kurt
 

rjdj2000

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If you just put the lower pin through the spring to engage the block, you won't have the proper tension with the lower block...the lower collar needs to be above the pin to capture it. It is difficult hold that collar up so the pin to be inserted. I have used my fingernails to raise the collar and then hold it up with one of my tweezers. That then frees my hand to slip the pin under the collar and into the hole in the block.

That said, I suppose if it fits and stays there, it's OK. The collar covering the ends of the pin is supposed to keep the pin in place since it wouldn't be able to slip either way.

Kurt
Ahh... Ok. Will try to get it into the proper place. I was using tweezers as well to hold the ring up to get the pin in. Will try again to get it into the proper place then worry about getting it in beat.
 

rjdj2000

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If you just put the lower pin through the spring to engage the block, you won't have the proper tension with the lower block...the lower collar needs to be above the pin to capture it. It is difficult hold that collar up so the pin to be inserted. I have used my fingernails to raise the collar and then hold it up with one of my tweezers. That then frees my hand to slip the pin under the collar and into the hole in the block.

That said, I suppose if it fits and stays there, it's OK. The collar covering the ends of the pin is supposed to keep the pin in place since it wouldn't be able to slip either way.

Kurt
Duplicate - removed
 

Wayne A

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Ahh... Ok. Will try to get it into the proper place. I was using tweezers as well to hold the ring up to get the pin in. Will try again to get it into the proper place then worry about getting it in beat.
Think the only problem with not having the pin retainer in the proper place is that the pin can fall out if you raise and lock the pendulum. The spring loaded pin retainer does just that, keeps the pin from falling out.

Wayne
 

rjdj2000

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Just took care of the pin and retainer ring is now on top of the pin. How much should the main spring be wound in this? I've seen a handful of turns or should it be wound pretty good? It is acting like there isn't enough power to keep it going.
 

KurtinSA

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I try to use something below half power, say 1-1/2 to two turns for my testing phase. This amount of power represents the middle part of spring power, not fully wound and not at the dying end. If it can't run there, then you have problems. If it does run there, then the clock has a good potential of running for nearly a year.

Kurt
 

rjdj2000

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I try to use something below half power, say 1-1/2 to two turns for my testing phase. This amount of power represents the middle part of spring power, not fully wound and not at the dying end. If it can't run there, then you have problems. If it does run there, then the clock has a good potential of running for nearly a year.

Kurt
Yeah, that is where I was but I think the pallets may need adjusting in the anchor as it starts out good then one side will kind of hang and not go to the opposite side properly. Don't really want to have to take this all apart again but may have to. All pivots looked good and were not loose in their respective locations either. I may end up having to take to the repair shop if I can't figure it out.
 

Wayne A

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Yeah, that is where I was but I think the pallets may need adjusting in the anchor as it starts out good then one side will kind of hang and not go to the opposite side properly. Don't really want to have to take this all apart again but may have to. All pivots looked good and were not loose in their respective locations either. I may end up having to take to the repair shop if I can't figure it out.
Beat properly set?
 

Schatznut

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Please restrain your worst impulse (sorry for the pun) to adjust the pallets. If the clock was running before the overhaul (and at some point it obviously was), the pallets are fine. You can do more to keep a clock from running by adjusting the pallets than just about any other thing. Make a copy of the beat-setting tool in the book and learn how to use it by trial and error, trial and error, and trial and error. Odds are this is where your problem is.
 

rjdj2000

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Schatznut yeah I know. It did run at one time so I won't go there as it should run again now. Wayne A by listening with my ear and watching pendulum it will tic, pendulum stops and reverses then get toc, pendulum stops and reverses so I believe I am fairly close to being on beat. I don't think I could get any closer actually. Will keep watch on it here and see if it keeps going. As it sits right in front of my keyboard here on my desk, if it continues to run, will hate to have to move it to it's home and start all over. lol
 

KurtinSA

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One of my tests after working on a clock is manually checking the escapement. I put a number of clicks on the main spring and then carefully move the anchor pin back and forth...I use my fingertip so I can control the anchor. I watch to verify the drops are the same, that the locks are enough and not too much, and also notice where the anchor pin is when the escape wheel teeth are about 1/3 of the way down the impulse face. The anchor pin needs to be vertical in this situation. Probably should check this against all teeth. Then you'll know if you need to adjust the pallets or the eccentric.

Kurt
 

rjdj2000

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Oct 22, 2022
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One thing I have noticed while watching this, the inside of the fork is somewhat rough, so it isn't moving smoothly over the pin. Could that be an issue? like it is hanging up on it somehow.
 

Wayne A

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Sep 24, 2019
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One thing I have noticed while watching this, the inside of the fork is somewhat rough, so it isn't moving smoothly over the pin. Could that be an issue? like it is hanging up on it somehow.
Fork to pin contacts should be absolutely smooth, I polish mine. Also check that there is some clearance at end of pendulum swing. Say 180 deg rotation from rest there needs to be 1-2 thousandths clearance. You can use glossy magazine paper to check the gap as printer paper can be quite thick.

Wayne
 

rjdj2000

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Oct 22, 2022
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Fork to pin contacts should be absolutely smooth, I polish mine. Also check that there is some clearance at end of pendulum swing. Say 180 deg rotation from rest there needs to be 1-2 thousandths clearance. You can use glossy magazine paper to check the gap as printer paper can be quite thick.

Wayne
Ok. Will check it here in a bit but it looked a bit rough through a jewelers loupe. Will try to clean it up, should have looked at it better when I made up the spring.
 

tracerjack

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Jun 6, 2016
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Yes, the inside of the fork should be smooth, but don’t mistake the jerk the fork does from the interaction between the pallets and the escape wheel teeth as ‘hanging up’.
 

Schatznut

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Rarely, if ever, do pallets on torsion-pendulum clocks become rough through use because there is so little force being transmitted through them. You'll find the manufacturers only polished the pallet faces necessary to ensure correct operation.
 

rjdj2000

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Here is a picture of the fork... Best way to polish it?

1669571109891.jpg
 

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