Kundo won't stay running

[rjdj2000]

Hello,

I have a Kundo 400 day clock that my wife and I received as a wedding gift from my great aunt & uncle. He used to repair clocks, has since passed in 2016, so I know it was in good shape when we got it. I had it running for a few years, can be very finicky with being level and no vibrations, I locked the bottom up just how we got it when we moved back in 2008. I have not been successful in getting this back running. I took a couple pictures from the back and a short video of escape wheel through the holes in back plate. If anyone can shed some light, I am all ears but I am thinking a teardown and clean is probably what will need to happen to get this back working again.



Hope the youtube video comes through, wasn't exactly sure how to get that in there but it is linked

 

[KurtinSA]

The suspension spring should be replaced...it's very twisted and won't contribute to a long running clock. I see lots of oil on the back plate and at the base of the clock. The video shows very little power. It would be best to take the clock apart and fully service the clock, cleaning it up. The main spring should also be removed from the barrel and serviced. Too much oil in places like the main spring can create hydro lock between leaves of the spring. After that, you'd be in a better position to assess the clock and get it running.

Kurt

 

[rjdj2000]

The suspension spring should be replaced...it's very twisted and won't contribute to a long running clock. I see lots of oil on the back plate and at the base of the clock. The video shows very little power. It would be best to take the clock apart and fully service the clock, cleaning it up. The main spring should also be removed from the barrel and serviced. Too much oil in places like the main spring can create hydro lock between leaves of the spring. After that, you'd be in a better position to assess the clock and get it running.

Kurt

Kurt,

I figured that it probably would have to happen. Would a machinist oil for calipers, etc work for the mainspring once it is cleaned? As to the suspension spring, I saw in another post of a 0.0023" type to be used on a clock just like this one. Would that be what is needed for mine as well and I saw the post about cutting it long as if cut too short, it won't work lol.

Jeff

 

[Wayne A]

but I am thinking a teardown and clean is probably what will need to happen to get this back working again.

Yep, spot on. Theirs not sufficient power there.

Wayne

 

[KurtinSA]

That particular clock should take a 0.0032" suspension spring...I see it as plate #1380 in the repair guide. The 0.0023" number was likely for Kundo's miniature clocks...I think yours is full size.

I'm not familiar with machinist's oil. What you want is a synthetic so it doesn't gum up over time. Much has been written about oils, but something that is easy to find is Mobil1 synthetic, say 0w5 or so. Others suggest that small amounts of teflon should be added. Lately I've been using TriFlow which is typically found in bicycle shops. It contains PTFE.

Kut

 

[rjdj2000]

That particular clock should take a 0.0032" suspension spring...I see it as plate #1380 in the repair guide. The 0.0023" number was likely for Kundo's miniature clocks...I think yours is full size.

I'm not familiar with machinist's oil. What you want is a synthetic so it doesn't gum up over time. Much has been written about oils, but something that is easy to find is Mobil1 synthetic, say 0w5 or so. Others suggest that small amounts of teflon should be added. Lately I've been using TriFlow which is typically found in bicycle shops. It contains PTFE.

Kut

Ok. Here is the machinist oil I was talking about. It is used on vernier calipers, etc. that machinists, like myself, use on precision measuring instruments. Starrett Tool and Instrument Oil I do have a needle oiler that is marked Clock 859 Synthetic Clock Oil which I have used on pinions of other movements.

I do believe mine to be a full sized unit, it measures approximately 11-1/2" to top of the center finial of the clock. Will do some looking at the various clock parts places here online and work on getting what I need to get this back going. After the passing of my great uncle and the recent purchase of a Gustav Becker Vienna Regulator, it has restored my love for clocks again. So I have been going through what I have that hasn't run in quite some time to see if I can get them back going. I have made a few posts about those adventures in the other repair forums here. I have a Tiffany crystal regulator that was my dad's that I need to get back running as well, but I think I am going to leave that one to a fellow NAWCC local chapter president who has a repair shop close by to clean and get functional.

 

[KurtinSA]

You might be on to something with the Starrett oil. That said, things like regular synthetic over-the-counter oils are more often discussed than specialty oils IMO. All you can do is try your oil and see how it works over the long haul, like 5-10 years.

Discussion of oils for clocks tends to be a lot like those discussions I've seen for use of engine oils in cars and motorcycles. There are endless discussions and points of view. For cars, etc., the best advice is to use a quality oil and change it often. For clocks, that probably doesn't apply. But I think you don't want a generic mineral based oil which will break down over the years, resulting in overhaul more often.

And also, clock servicing is more than just oiling. The goal of the service, especially 400-day clocks, is to reduce the friction losses as much as possible. Oiling helps. But attention should also be paid to the pivots and holes in the plates to ensure that the wheels in the train don't cut power up to the escape wheel. It's very critical to address that as well.

Kurt

 

[Schatznut]

Ok. Here is the machinist oil I was talking about. It is used on vernier calipers, etc. that machinists, like myself, use on precision measuring instruments. Starrett Tool and Instrument Oil I do have a needle oiler that is marked Clock 859 Synthetic Clock Oil which I have used on pinions of other movements.

I do believe mine to be a full sized unit, it measures approximately 11-1/2" to top of the center finial of the clock. Will do some looking at the various clock parts places here online and work on getting what I need to get this back going. After the passing of my great uncle and the recent purchase of a Gustav Becker Vienna Regulator, it has restored my love for clocks again. So I have been going through what I have that hasn't run in quite some time to see if I can get them back going. I have made a few posts about those adventures in the other repair forums here. I have a Tiffany crystal regulator that was my dad's that I need to get back running as well, but I think I am going to leave that one to a fellow NAWCC local chapter president who has a repair shop close by to clean and get functional.

Recommend you use Starrett tool and instrument oil on tools and instruments, and synthetic clock oil on clocks. Synthetic clock oils won't oxidize and gum up, and this is of key importance on 400-day clocks because they operate by releasing a very small amount of energy over a very long period of time, and any resistance to that process could cause them to stall.

Re your Kundo movement, the clock is full-size but the works appears to be a stretched version of their miniature movement. This is not particularly important, as the principles are the same.

 

[rjdj2000]

Recommend you use Starrett tool and instrument oil on tools and instruments, and synthetic clock oil on clocks. Synthetic clock oils won't oxidize and gum up, and this is of key importance on 400-day clocks because they operate by releasing a very small amount of energy over a very long period of time, and any resistance to that process could cause them to stall.

Re your Kundo movement, the clock is full-size but the works appears to be a stretched version of their miniature movement. This is not particularly important, as the principles are the same.

Will note that. I know that it is used very lightly on measuring equipment as anything built up gums up the works and you cannot obtain a precise measurement. Will find a nice lightweight synthetic clock oil for it as Kurt has mentioned.

 

[Ken M]

"Over wound?" j/k.

 

[Wayne A]

Discussion of oils for clocks tends to be a lot like those discussions I've seen for use of engine oils in cars and motorcycles. There are endless discussions and points of view. For cars, etc., the best advice is to use a quality oil and change it often. For clocks, that probably doesn't apply. But I think you don't want a generic mineral based oil which will break down over the years, resulting in overhaul more often.

Like reading those oil discussions, they can be entertaining! I'm on team synthetic light motor oil for pivots.

In an earlier post you mentioned tri-flow but I'm not sure its synthetic so I've not tried it on clocks. I do use allot of tri-flow on my radio control helicopters, its great lube for high speed bearings and sliding parts. I get the 6oz drip bottle and oil up my helicopters at the beginning of every flying day.

Wayne

 

[Wayne A]

"Over wound?" j/k.
View attachment 735094

Just a little! I've had a few clocks arrive like that and just for grins tried to unwind them and for the most part it can be done. Replaced them anyway though thinking all that cold bending might have affected the spring rate.

Wayne

 

[Ken M]

I've seen them now and then on post WWII clocks, not so much on earlier clocks.

 

[Schatznut]

"Over wound?" j/k.
View attachment 735094

Ken, I love your twisted sense of humor!

 

[KurtinSA]

In an earlier post you mentioned tri-flow but I'm not sure its synthetic so I've not tried it on clocks.

I thought I'd seen something online about it, but the can doesn't tout being synthetic so looks like not. I've had so much luck with other applications and with the added teflon component, I thought I'd try it. I'm currently in a mode of relooking at a number of clocks that I had worked prior to my starting with TriFlow. They typically would only run for 6 months or so. So, I'm going back in and only servicing the main spring and put it back on the shelf. I will know more in 4-5 months!!

Kurt

 

[rjdj2000]

"Over wound?" j/k.

Yeah I am not sure on what happened. Will get new spring and get the book on repairing the 400 day clocks as when I watched a video online it has the charts in it to approximate where everything goes on the spring. Then I will have the book for future reference as well. I just want to further say thank you to all for the information you have given me in not only this post, but other posts I have on here. I realize I have lots to learn but if I can learn 4 axis machining on my own, clock movements should be easy. Now I know all of them are not going to be easy, but with time, I will get to the point of being able to do them with relative ease.

 

[Ken M]

That happens when a novice tries to get it running, and in a last ditch effort, twists the suspension spring into a coil hoping it will run. At least that's my theory.

 

[Schatznut]

That happens when a novice tries to get it running, and in a last ditch effort, twists the suspension spring into a coil hoping it will run. At least that's my theory.

If it looks like a spring and acts like a spring, it must be a spring. So let's wind 'er up and see what happens! Oops.

I've received clocks that had the pendulum unrestrained during shipment (more common than not), and sometimes the torsion spring is intact but wound up like this one. My guess is that the pendulum freewheels during shipment, causing the damage. Usually, however, the torsion spring breaks and the pendulum crashes around inside the clock and ultimately shatters the dome.

 

[Wayne A]

That happens when a novice tries to get it running, and in a last ditch effort, twists the suspension spring into a coil hoping it will run. At least that's my theory.

Yep, or a cat, small child, etc. Clocks need winding right?

Wayne

 

[KurtinSA]

but if I can learn 4 axis machining on my own, clock movements should be easy.

Ummm...shouldn't have said that. 400-day movements can be quite frustrating...for a long time...and I'm a relative newbie. DAMHIK.

Kurt

 

[Schatznut]

Ummm...shouldn't have said that. 400-day movements can be quite frustrating...for a long time...and I'm a relative newbie. DAMHIK.

Kurt

Kurt's right. Many professional clock repair persons won't touch a 400-day clock on a bet because for all their skill and experience, they can't make it run reliably. And then they disparage the clocks by calling them "novelty clocks," which they are not.

Every time I think I'm starting to get pretty good at these clocks, one comes along and knocks me down a few pegs. A good lesson in humility.

 

[rjdj2000]

I am about to order some other clock parts from Timesavers, re new bellow tops for a Shatz 8 day I just got but needs a serious cleaning and new bellows, and a weight for another cuckoo clock I got for my son. I saw that they had pre-assembled suspension springs for Kundo 400 day clocks. Any idea on which one I should get? OR I just buy the 0.0032" springs then figure out where all the parts mount to it, as it is all twisted, I doubt I can get it in the right position. I know this is going to be quite the task for a novice to repair but I am willing to tackle it as it is from someone I looked up to about clocks and admired his collection.

 

[KurtinSA]

You've never really posted pictures of the pendulum. But it appears that it is the locking type with a special floating pin which is used to capture the bottom block. If that's the case, and you do indeed have a Kundo plate 1380, then the repair guide says it is Unit 3C which Timesavers offers. It says it has the "Nivarox" spring...not sure if that's the same thing offered by the Horolovar company. If I were doing it, I'd order from The Horolovar Company and know that you are getting the right unit.

Kurt

 

[rjdj2000]

KurtinSA

Sorry about that. Pictures are below. I think Timesavers has the Horolovar springs, I just saw that they had pre-assembled ones. More than likely I probably should just get the springs and the repair book as it has diagrams to show where the corresponding parts go on the spring. Then use the parts that are, I believe original, to the clock and put it back together that way. Is there any way to determine the plate # on these? or is it by size?

Jeff

 

[KurtinSA]

The Horolovar Store will also sell you built up suspension units. My very first clock I stupidly broke the spring and bought one from them. Shortly after that, I realized I could do it myself with a bit of care and good tools. Have been just buying springs since then.

If you're going to do more 400-day clocks, then making the investment in the repair guide might be worth it. The book has drawings to size of a vast majority of plates. You find distinguishing marks, logos, names, etc., on the clock and then hunt for them in the book. If you find a good representative, then the diagram gives you all you need to know about main springs and suspension units. It has some info about dating the clocks, but there are some discrepancies so take it with a grain of salt.

You do have the pendulum where it's a little difficult to get the bottom block free. There's a collar that is spring-loaded that keeps things in place. There is a pin that goes through the bottom block that the collar captures. Sometimes getting that pin out is difficult as the pin is knurled on the side to keep it in the hole. Pain to pull out...once I do, I take the time to file the knurling off for easier insertion. The knurling was there to keep the pin in placing during shipping.

If you can remove the existing suspension unit in one piece, then laying it out on a workboard you could get a good idea of the dimensions, although it will have "shrunk" do to all the twisting. Whenever I make up a new suspension unit, sometimes I cut the spring to be a bit long and try it out. If indeed I am too long, I'll see how much I need to cut to get it to hang correctly. It just takes some time.

Kurt

 

[rjdj2000]

The Horolovar Store will also sell you built up suspension units. My very first clock I stupidly broke the spring and bought one from them. Shortly after that, I realized I could do it myself with a bit of care and good tools. Have been just buying springs since then.

If you're going to do more 400-day clocks, then making the investment in the repair guide might be worth it. The book has drawings to size of a vast majority of plates. You find distinguishing marks, logos, names, etc., on the clock and then hunt for them in the book. If you find a good representative, then the diagram gives you all you need to know about main springs and suspension units. It has some info about dating the clocks, but there are some discrepancies so take it with a grain of salt.

You do have the pendulum where it's a little difficult to get the bottom block free. There's a collar that is spring-loaded that keeps things in place. There is a pin that goes through the bottom block that the collar captures. Sometimes getting that pin out is difficult as the pin is knurled on the side to keep it in the hole. Pain to pull out...once I do, I take the time to file the knurling off for easier insertion. The knurling was there to keep the pin in placing during shipping.

If you can remove the existing suspension unit in one piece, then laying it out on a workboard you could get a good idea of the dimensions, although it will have "shrunk" do to all the twisting. Whenever I make up a new suspension unit, sometimes I cut the spring to be a bit long and try it out. If indeed I am too long, I'll see how much I need to cut to get it to hang correctly. It just takes some time.

Kurt

It is possible I may do more, depends on if I find any more... LOL My great uncle probably repaired this one at some point so who knows on the pin in the bottom block. I did see the spring and retainer to remove the pin. So I guess I will do some looking and see what I need. Probably not a bad idea to get the book as who knows what other issues I'll have once I get started.

Just visited the online store and for the 0.0032, they are 5-3/8 long and the book there is cheaper than other places I found. So guess will get book and a 3 pk. of the 0.0032 suspension springs and give it a go with replacing it. Then I'll have 2 extras if I don't screw up doing it. LOL

 

[rjdj2000]

Well I purchased the 0.0032" suspension springs today and the Horolovar book to repair 400 day clocks. Guess if I am going to try to do this, might as well learn how to setup a spring from scratch. Once they arrive, will have to study the book and find my particular clock in it and see what it says. Will report back here on it once I do find out.

 

[KurtinSA]

You'll need a good set of pliers to grab the blocks to screw/unscrew the small fasteners. And nice screwdrivers. Remember they're steel screws into brass, so be sure and don't go overboard...just a little bit of pressure is needed to hold the suspension spring. Center the spring where it goes into the blocks. Be careful grabbing the fork with your pliers...again not much force is needed to get the fork to clamp.

You can probably use a small board like a 1x4 as a work station. Towards one end, I put a small hole in the board to accept the pin on those lower blocks that have them...that way the block lies flat on the board for easier access. Yours probably won't have a pin in the lower block except when you are securing the suspension unit to the pendulum.

I had trouble getting the pendulum connected for the Kundos. I finally discovered to first lock the pendulum into the clock. Then carefully lower the bottom block into the top of the pendulum and turn your attention to the top block and get the screw in up there to hold it. Now you can come back to the bottom block and use your three hands to hold that little spring/collar mechanism up while you try and push the pin into place.

HTH...Kurt

 

[rjdj2000]

You'll need a good set of pliers to grab the blocks to screw/unscrew the small fasteners. And nice screwdrivers. Remember they're steel screws into brass, so be sure and don't go overboard...just a little bit of pressure is needed to hold the suspension spring. Center the spring where it goes into the blocks. Be careful grabbing the fork with your pliers...again not much force is needed to get the fork to clamp.

You can probably use a small board like a 1x4 as a work station. Towards one end, I put a small hole in the board to accept the pin on those lower blocks that have them...that way the block lies flat on the board for easier access. Yours probably won't have a pin in the lower block except when you are securing the suspension unit to the pendulum.

I had trouble getting the pendulum connected for the Kundos. I finally discovered to first lock the pendulum into the clock. Then carefully lower the bottom block into the top of the pendulum and turn your attention to the top block and get the screw in up there to hold it. Now you can come back to the bottom block and use your three hands to hold that little spring/collar mechanism up while you try and push the pin into place.

HTH...Kurt

Kurt,

Thanks for the advice. I will hopefully get this back into working condition as I miss not having it run. I know that they are quite finicky and everything needs to be just right on them. I really need to take it apart to clean it as it has sat idle for about 14 years so I imagine any dust or what not that may have gotten to it isn't going to help in getting it back going. I would put the suspension spring in and try it but not sure if that would be a good idea.

Jeff

 

[Dells]

Kurt,

Thanks for the advice. I will hopefully get this back into working condition as I miss not having it run. I know that they are quite finicky and everything needs to be just right on them. I really need to take it apart to clean it as it has sat idle for about 14 years so I imagine any dust or what not that may have gotten to it isn't going to help in getting it back going. I would put the suspension spring in and try it but not sure if that would be a good idea.

Jeff

Hi Jeff
I have done a video on YouTube showing how I make up a new torsion spring, it may help you.
Dell

 

[rjdj2000]

De

Hi Jeff
I have done a video on YouTube showing how I make up a new torsion spring, it may help you.
Dell

Dells,

Will check it out. I believe my book and springs will be here tomorrow so may have to give it a go once I locate everything in the book.
Jeff

 

[Dells]

I think you will find that the book is wrong it’s probably not 0.0032

Well I purchased the 0.0032" suspension springs today and the Horolovar book to repair 400 day clocks. Guess if I am going to try to do this, might as well learn how to setup a spring from scratch. Once they arrive, will have to study the book and find my particular clock in it and see what it says. Will report back here on it once I do find out.

I think you will find that the book is wrong it's probably not 0.0032" it will more likely be 0.0031" if so you will either have to get the correct size or thin it.
Dell

 

[KurtinSA]

I've written about this before. In an unknown situation, I hate to cut a suspension spring only to find that it's the wrong size. What I do is put together the suspension unit without the fork. Put on the bottom block. Put on the top block but if possible, slide the excess spring through the block until the block is essentially where it would be when installed on the clock...the book will tell you the distance between blocks. Then find a way to clamp the top block in a free hanging situation. Once secure, put the pendulum on, put the adjuster into the middle of the range, and start the pendulum rotation, turning it say 180 degrees. Let it settle in a bit, then time the pendulum for how long to get 8 beats. If it's near 60 then you have the right spring...maybe a small adjustment in the pendulum will get it close. If it's way out, wrong spring. If you have a better size on hand, repeat. Otherwise, you may need to consider thinning the spin only if you need a slower response from the spring. Once you find the spring you need, then cut to size.

Kurt

 

[rjdj2000]

Will have to mic the current spring, if I can get a good spot to mic it. Maybe between the fork and top block. Being a machinist, I have tools to measure that 0.0001" I hope I ordered right springs though. One wouldn't think a tenth would make that much difference but on these, it probably does.

 

[KurtinSA]

A tenth?? 1/1000" makes a difference!

Kurt

 

[rjdj2000]

Yeah I figured as much... LOL Once the new springs get here I'll try to check the old spring, should of measured the thickness before ordering, then hopefully will have the right ones. If not, will have time to study the book at least. Oh and I like the sig there Kurt, just read it... LOL

 

[Schatznut]

A tenth?? 1/1000" makes a difference!

Kurt

Kurt, he was referring to a tenth of a thousandth...

 

[Dells]

I have just done the exact same clock for a customer it was very fussy to get running,
Dell

 

[Dells]

Forgot to add picture.

 

[KurtinSA]

Kurt, he was referring to a tenth of a thousandth...

OK. We typically don't need to measure down that far. But even then, 1/10000 can make a difference!

Kurt

 

[Schatznut]

OK. We typically don't need to measure down that far. But even then, 1/10000 can make a difference!

Kurt

Yes, that's the standard unit of measure for torsion spring strength!

 

[KurtinSA]

My oversight...I was missing a zero!! Only need to measure down to 0.0001".

Kurt

 

[rjdj2000]

Well my book and suspension springs arrived today. Browsed the book and found the 1380 plate diagram and the 3C diagram for the spring. Would be nice if they put plate sizes in there as well lol. Oh well at least I have what it says to have in the book. Now to make a little 'jig' to set this up and get it in. Now the fun part is going to be taking this apart to clean the excess oil that is over the plate, etc. and getting it back together. As to the mainspring being in a barrel, is that something I need to worry about or just let the spring down for disassembly of everything?

If I run into issues, I will certainly be back in here to ask questions as well as looking in the book.

 

[Schatznut]

Definitely let down the mainspring as your first action. Expensive and dangerous things happen if you don't. And make sure you rebuild the mainspring assembly - dismantle, clean, lubricate and reassemble. The correct way to do this is with a mainspring winder. Search the archives for ideas.

 

[KurtinSA]

Would be nice if they put plate sizes in there as well lol.

The images (except where noted) are actual size. No need for dimensions. I've never needed to see physical dimensions other than to notice what is full size, narrow, or mini/midget.

Kurt

 

[rjdj2000]

The images (except where noted) are actual size. No need for dimensions. I've never needed to see physical dimensions other than to notice what is full size, narrow, or mini/midget.

Kurt

Good to know. I figured that they probably were but nice to check anyways. Hopefully will be able to get through it without much trouble as I know my great uncle would have done anything it may have needed before giving it to me and my wife as a wedding present. It hasn't ran much since as any vibration it would quit due to throwing it off beat.

 

[KurtinSA]

It hasn't ran much since as any vibration it would quit due to throwing it off beat.

This has been mentioned on the forum. But I'm not sure I totally understand this. I've bumped clocks and they continue to run. Granted, if they are bumped enough and the pendulum touches the guide cup, it will stop the clock. If the screw that holds the top support bracket that holds the top block is loose...Schatz clocks have a screw...then a clock can easily be knocked out of beat. But in general, I don't see this happening much...not to me any way.

Kurt

 

[tracerjack]

I think those that get bumped and stop were only marginally running, so vibrations actually do stop them. Every time I think I bumped one, it just needed to be wound. If I find it is already wound, my first thought is it needs more work.

 

[Schatznut]

I think those that get bumped and stop were only marginally running, so vibrations actually do stop them. Every time I think I bumped one, it just needed to be wound. If I find it is already wound, my first thought is it needs more work.

There's a lot of wisdom in TJ's post. More than once I've made the mistake of first thinking it needs more work before checking to see if it's wound!

 

[rjdj2000]

There's a lot of wisdom in TJ's post. More than once I've made the mistake of first thinking it needs more work before checking to see if it's wound!

True. I know this one is wound so with everyone's post about the suspension spring and cleaning it, that is what I am going to do. I am afraid though that I don't have a winder to do anything with the main spring. So for now, I'll slowly let it off in the clock before I take everything apart to clean it. I will check it though to make sure it is good shape but I believe it is.