Kundo Pin Pallet Escapement

Discussion in '400-Day & Atmos' started by Harry Hopkins, Sep 13, 2016.

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  1. Harry Hopkins

    Harry Hopkins Registered User
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    A few days ago I found and bought what appeared to be a very common and ordinary Kundo 400 day clock. I am by no means an expert on these clocks but I do have a collection of about 40 of them... most all of them very commonly seen circa 1950's variety as this one is. This clock was complete but had a broken suspension spring so today I made up a new suspension unit to see if it wanted to run as it was. I identified the back plate as 1379.. Once I had the pendulum hanging again I looked through the inspection holes to set the beat and noticed for the first time that this clock had a pin pallet escapement. Upon a little more research using the 400 day guide I read that Kundo only made the pin pallet escapement for a short while and there is even a note on how to convert it to a Graham deadbeat. Apparently there must have been some pitfalls to having the pin pallet escapement in a torsion clock. With only winding the clock and setting the beat with the new suspension spring the clock seems quite robust. I had some fluttering but raised the fork and now I have about 270 degree rotation and at least 3/4 inch overswing in each direction. I can only assume it will run even stronger after a complete overhaul and new mainspring. Does anyone know what problems were common with this escapement that caused them to go back to the deadbeat? Any different adjustments I need to make to ensure it will be a reliable clock?
     

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  2. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    The pins are very hard and easily broke, especially
    when assembling.
    Tinker Dwight
     
    Berry Greene likes this.
  3. MartinM

    MartinM Registered User

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    And very hard to replace once broken.
    I am working on one where one of the pins broke while I was trying to straighten it, after assembly. How it got bent is still a mystery.
    The 2nd pin survived the process of getting the first pin replaced, though, by all rights, I should have broken it a couple of times.
    It's complicated by the fact that the pin is in a pocket in the anchor that is not drilled all the way through the anchor.
    I dulled two carbide drills getting the broken steel out.
    Thinking I was good to go, I reassembled the clock, set the beat and about 5 minutes later, I heard it 'whirring'.
    The other pin had broken.
    Given the time I invested in replacing the first pin, I contacted Chris Nimon at Horolovar.
    He didn't have a replacement anchor.
    This time I tried the alum method. I put the alum solution in a pill bottle cap and suspended the ear of the anchor with the broken pin in the solution by holding the anchor in a pair of forceps and let it cook for four days in a sunny windowsill, topping off the water as needed.
    After that, it was a simple matter to lightly chamfer the pocket with a 1/64" carbide center drill and then use a .31mm carbide drill in a pin vise to clean out the pocket.
    Finally, I pounded in a bit of #80 drill shank as a new pin.
    Not a lot of fun.
    And not a great escapement.
    You'd think with such long impulses, there would be good power to the pendulum. There isn't.
     
  4. Harry Hopkins

    Harry Hopkins Registered User
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    I will certainly be aware of how fragile the pins are when I disassemble this movement. As of now the movement is running but I still have some intermittent flutter. I am worried that by the time I get the fork raised high enough to stop flutter it will be running pretty weak but again... this is all before cleaning and probably replacing the mainspring. I thought the same while watching the escapement... that the long impulse surfaces would give more power.
     
  5. MartinM

    MartinM Registered User

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    #5 MartinM, Sep 16, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2016
    Harry,
    If you haven't disassembled this one, yet, could I ask a favor?
    When you do get to tearing it down, could you remove the suspension hanger and VERY CAREFULLY manipulate the escapement with the clock wound and tell me where along the lock face the pin first lands before the beginning of the impulse? Is it right at the lock face where it corners with the impulse face? Or further down the lock face

    I'm convinced that I'll need to move the peninsula on this one and as we know... You only get so many shots at that before you have a terminal failure.

    ETA: After looking at Pg 50 of the repair guide, it looks like it's setup right. As I can get the ew to spin with less than a single click on the mainspring, I must now assume it's pallet/ew polishing that's needed. Any helpful hints?
     
  6. Harry Hopkins

    Harry Hopkins Registered User
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    Martin, The pin contacts the lock faces just below the corners. I uploaded a short video that I think will better show you than I can tell you. I did not take off the suspension spring... this shows the clock running under it's own power. In the bottom of the video it allows you to make it full screen... that might help you see it better. http://www.harrysclockshop.com/pinpallet.html

    Let me know if there is anything else I can look at for you.
     
  7. MartinM

    MartinM Registered User

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    #7 MartinM, Sep 17, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2016
    Thanks, Harry.
    Visually, I really am not seeing any difference between the setup on the clocks. Mine wants to run, but just slowly dies and stops escaping after 5-10 minutes.
    Where do you have your fork and is the anchor pin completely vertical?

    ETA: Nice video, by the way.
     
  8. Harry Hopkins

    Harry Hopkins Registered User
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    The suspension unit is 5A. I may have put the fork on a little low when I made up the unit as I have had to raise it a couple of times but only because of the flutter. You will notice that the fork is installed with a slight angle to the suspension spring. The drawing of 5A in the book seems to show that it is supposed to have this slight angle. As you can see the anchor pin is vertical.

    I would agree with you that since your train spins freely with one click that you have an escapement geometry problem but since this is my first pin pallet I am not sure what to suggest other than the obvious. Do you know the history of the clock? Are you certain that the pins that broke off were original and correct size? Maybe they had been replaced by an earlier repair and were not sized correctly.. could also be why they broke off / fell out when you were assembling the movement.

    The one other thing that comes to mind is to double check that the anchor pin is not binding in the fork throughout the full range of motion (or too loose).

    20160917_074626.jpg
     
  9. MartinM

    MartinM Registered User

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    Well... It's running, if you can call it that.
    I set the fork to be exactly like yours and it still wasn't going, so I raised the anchor .1mm and it finally stayed running.
    The overswing is almost nonexistent.
    I think I still need to polish the escapement some more.
    I won't be looking forward to any more of these.
    Thanks again, Harry.
     
  10. Harry Hopkins

    Harry Hopkins Registered User
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    Hey Martin, does this look familiar?

    I completely took down my Kundo Pin Pallet clock, cleaned and polished everything, installed new mainspring and was reassembling when.... even with all the warnings I had been given.... I broke off one of the pins from the anchor during reassembly. :mad: The pin diameter was .012 and I have some pivot wire that size.. Now just to get the old broken pin out.. I have never tried using alum as Martin mentioned earlier. I am going to try his method of removing the broken pin as in his description above. Any other suggestions? As you can see I have the broken pin soaking in an alum solution. Its hard to tell in the picture but only the ear with the broken pin is submerged. I had no idea how strong to make the solution so I just added alum until it would not dissolve any more. I am leaving tomorrow for a few days, is it ok to leave it soaking that long?
     

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  11. MartinM

    MartinM Registered User

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    Sounds like you've got the situation well in hand.
     
  12. Kevin W.

    Kevin W. Registered User
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    I have a clock with a broken pin as well, thanks for the alum idea, never thought of trying that.
     
  13. shutterbug

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    Also be sure the replacement pin is EXACTLY the same size as the one being replaced. There is not much wiggle room in that escapement.
     
  14. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    Just don't let the alum wick up the brass to the arbor.
    I'd watch it for a few hours to make sure.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  15. Berry Greene

    Berry Greene Registered User

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    Harry I am currently struggling with a Midget Kern & Sohne 400 day - not very different from this Kundo pin-pallet of yours (or is it Martin's?) and very similar to the Schatz Jum/7 and a medium sized Haller I have here of my own which work OK. First I want to thank you for the fabulous video, then I want to ask you if I should start a new thread on this? This clock is making a real monkey out of me! OK OK I admit it! Sincerely, BerryG
     
  16. Harry Hopkins

    Harry Hopkins Registered User
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    Hi Berry, I had forgotten that I had posted the video until you refreshed my memory.

    I believe it is best to start a new thread with pictures and a description of your clock and what is causing you problems.
     
  17. MartinM

    MartinM Registered User

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    Did the alum work for yours, Harry?
     
  18. Harry Hopkins

    Harry Hopkins Registered User
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    Yes. That was over 2 years ago and it was the first time I had tried using alum. I mixed the alum until no more would dissolve in hot water. I think I let the part soak for a few days occasionally stirring the solution and even warming the solution in a microwave a couple of times. After a few days I really couldn't tell how well it had worked but decided it was time to try to drill out any of the remaining steel pin. After carefully setting it up in my mill I started drilling and the only thing that came out of the hole in the brass anchor was some sludge. I have had to use alum once since then on a similar piece and it worked equally as well the second time. Thanks for your earlier details of using alum.
     
  19. tracerjack

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    Just to be clear for others reading the posts, you warmed up just the solution in the microwave, not with any metal sitting in it.
     
  20. Harry Hopkins

    Harry Hopkins Registered User
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    Yes I thought a warmer solution of Alum might work quicker. I had mixed up the solution in a small plastic container and just carried the container with solution only to the microwave a couple of times. Sorry for the confusion.
     
  21. tracerjack

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    #21 tracerjack, Feb 21, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2019
    I've heeded the warning label on the microwave, that you can't put metal in the microwave, but not everyone seems to know that fact or read their instruction booklet. I didn't want anyone to assume that you had and somehow got away with it, thinking "let's give it a try" sort of thing.
     
  22. MartinM

    MartinM Registered User

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    I've microwaved metal a few times and gotten away with it. Smaller items like bread ties and small bits of aluminum foil that remained from tearing of a peel-off top on a plastic container.
    Those won't damage your machine, but do make for a good show. Same with gold paint on the rims of some china. Larger items like a spoon do present a hazard if the microwaves are redirected or focused back on the waveguide exit for the magnettron. You'll hear the machine working harder before it kills the magnetron.

    P.S. I was in Lodi for the Wine and Chocolate tour a couple of weeks ago. There are some really nice facilities and wines in the Lodi AVA.
     
  23. tracerjack

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    MartinM -I didn’t think something as small as a pin pallet would likely do anything in a microwave, but common sense doesn’t seem to be as prevelant as it once was. (That statement is probably a dead giveaway of my generation). Have learned it’s best to clarify things before they get out of hand.

    I’ve lived in Lodi most of my life. First we were the Tokay grape capital of the world, then the Zinfandel capital. I don’t know what we are now, but grape vineyards and wineries are everywhere you look. You couldn’t have come to a better place to taste wine.
     
  24. Harry Hopkins

    Harry Hopkins Registered User
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    "Oh Lord, Stuck in Lodi again...."

    I suppose that is a dead giveaway of my generation...
     
  25. KurtinSA

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    And I'm sure he was grateful to hear that...again!!

    Kurt
     
  26. tracerjack

    tracerjack Registered User
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    Strangely, I kind of remember the song being well received in Lodi, because there were as many that liked being stuck here and those that didn't. Each side thought the song was expressing their point of view.
     
  27. MartinM

    MartinM Registered User

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    When I was stationed in New Jersey, they all thought it was about their Lodi.
    I'm, gonna be pouring for Ironstone again at ZinFest in May.
     
  28. Berry Greene

    Berry Greene Registered User

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    What a fantastic still shot! Just gotta say that. I'm keeping it if I can get it. A part of me wants to know how you did that. Another part feel embarrassed to say I cannot get shots like that! Well done HH
     
  29. Burkhard Rasch

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    just one remark to the original subject : the forces performed on the anchor pins by the escape wheel are quiet small,so IMHO the pins don´t need to be hardened at all .With my last pin pallet anniversary I annealed the pins (with a cigatette lighter) to avoid just that problem.Worked well for me,clock is running nicely with "soft" pin pallets.
    Just my 2cts though...
    Burkhard
     
  30. victor miranda

    victor miranda Registered User

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    hi Burkhard Rasch,

    I think the hardening is to prevent wear.
    I have used piano wire to replace at least one pin.
    the sewing needle Idea replacement is good and I can't recall who here said it.

    victor
     
  31. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    Oldest post I can find is from 2005 by a person who is no longer on the forum it appears:

    Broken pin on a pin pallet anchor

    Kurt
     
  32. Berry Greene

    Berry Greene Registered User

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    To Harry Hopkins
    Victor Miranda
    Burkhard Rasch
    KurtinSA
    John Hubby
    MartinM
    Tinker Dwight
    Shutterbug
    ALL OF YOU!

    That photo of Harry's reminded me of that awkward little Kern & Sohne that I mentioned here a while back when perhaps I shouldn't. It is very similar to the Kundo miniature pin-pallet in Harry's picture. My wife told me I must put it aside before the men in white coats were called in! I had done it all. Dismantled, examined, cleaned, polished, lubed then all over again. Yes I am almost ashamed!
    Harry said to start a new strand with photos and I knew it would mean video. My first attempt at video was not good enough - hence no follow up. The point is that it came to me with a broken pallet pin and filthy. So I replaced the pin with matching 10 thou wire from a guitar string using a tiny quantity of JB Weld. It held it successfully but as the clock would not sustain no matter what I did with the fork, I kept coming back to my repair. The stiction & friction passed all the half turn wind tests.
    My ears were ringing with the cautions that it is almost NEVER the mainspring! Manual assistance didn't help so maybe not then. I examined my repair again. Was it slightly out of centre? I had drilled out the original but maybe my fine drill had gone down the side of it? Was that hardened steel guitar string stiff enough? So I did it again and I have a big hole now man! Undaunted I filled it with solder and positioned the pin spot on. No not easy for me but you could do it straight off! That wicked up solder you see there was polished off. All comments welcomed - he said!
    Reassembled - but does it work? NOPE! Not until I marvelled at Harry's photo and re-read his text. This might be a Kern & Sohne but that angled fork on the Kundo...... what's to lose? Yes I have it sustaining at last. Lots of flutter but sustaining. Move the fork even higher but keep the angle. Yes this might be as good as it gets. I feel relief. It's just for show - never mind about the time! I don't care. I gotta PC for that. OK I might try and rate it - its hardly wound yet! Rotation poor less than 180 deg.
    You want photo? What for? My pics aren't like Harry's. OK then but no sarcasm please!
    New 0.0023" suspension. Fork polished and adjusted. EW polished - tried spot of oil - none now. Ain't this hard work then! Oh but she is a pretty little thing eh?

    Kern Midget 400 day-(2).JPG Kern Midget 400 day-(1).JPG Kern & Sohne pallet repair-(1).JPG Kern & Sohne pallet repair-(3).JPG

    Best regards and thanks everyone.
    BerryG
     
  33. victor miranda

    victor miranda Registered User

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    Hi Berry,
    photos can be deceiving and I may be fooled...
    Third photo, it looks like the one pin on the right side is not parallel to the arbor.

    at some point in my life I decided that red loc-tite was my best friend
    and that is how I glue metal parts like pins into verges.

    acetone does dissolve it If you want to soak that long.
    soldering iron hot will also get it to let go.
    the same heat will help remove the JB-weld.

    victor
     
  34. Berry Greene

    Berry Greene Registered User

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    Hi Victor
    Thanks for he response. Gratefully received as I too love Loctite and all who sail in her!
    A moment to explain. This Midget Kern & Sohne really tried me. I just could not make it work. I did use JB Weld for the first repair as I was mindful of the need for it to take to, in a firm way, this tiny little bit of tempered (might it be silver-steel?) guitar string. I do have some other tempered steel wire (appears blued?) but it was over-size by a few thou and that is what drove me to the guitar strings. {Yes I do play - absolutely wonderfully!)
    The point is that try as I might I could not get this clock to sustain. Just 15 mins and stop. I came back to the Forum for inspiration and found a little in Harry Hopkins post of a really excellent video of a similar Kundo. I was following a trail set previously by MartinM (above). Frankly I felt embarrassed and very inadequate that this clock just would not go! At that point Harry suggested that I should not butt in here but start a new thread. {BTW that video will lead you to Harry's web-site which is well worth a visit. He's a top bloke and obliging and nice with it. That will be £3.60 imperial Harry!}. I could see that I was heading for a video of the escapement and a closer analysis of my work by the Forumers. Oh boy!
    Thinking of my repair I spotted the pallet might not be true - as reported above - and then I thought solder might be more acceptable to these craftsmen members of NAWCC than Super-glue etc. That's my reasoning. Solid metal.
    It was more recently that I spotted that superb still Harry took of his Kundo with the pin-pallet. I was genuinely taken with the quality of his photo. It was a while before I spotted the comment on the fork angle. Monkey see - monkey do and voila we have action as reported above. The fork is so high! No wonder there's so little rotation? But it sustains.
    This morning that little machine has covered 48 hrs and lost 10 mins. In my book losses in Torsion clocks are good. It could mean NO FLUTTER! It has not been rated by me in any way yet. I can't even report on the adjustment setting but the bobs look spread pretty wide.. TBH I am just made up that it is going at last. Lovely to look at as she is - I gotta whisper to ya that I would never marry her! Unreliable hussy IMHO!
    Best regards
    BerryG
     
  35. Berry Greene

    Berry Greene Registered User

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    Victor
    Sorry I didn't address the question pin being parallel with the arbour. You are absolutely correct sir! That photo is after I soldered but before I cleaned it up and dressed it. You are right - it did need to be made perpendicular and it's very tricky to get it by eye. It also brings up the whole business of temper. These pins need to be hard enough not to lose that setting IMHO. I don't think it's so much the wear as that feature that calls for the hardness.
    If I was doing this again - heaven forbid - I would use the Alum (mentioned above by Harry Hopkins), and clear the original pocket. It seems like hard work but worth it to maintain the precision. You cannot drill it out - it's too hard. The lesson here is DON'T BREAK THEM! It's all too easy. This Kern & Sohne has 10 thou pins. {Top E string acoustic gtr}.
    Berry
     
  36. MartinM

    MartinM Registered User

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    Berry. You did right in making sure the pin replacement was with correct sized wire.
    As for operation, just keep playing with the fork location until it works better. If it's not fluttering, you can lower it on the suspension spring until it does and then raise it just a bit. What kind of overswing are you experiencing in each direction?
     
  37. Berry Greene

    Berry Greene Registered User

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    Hi Martin
    Thanks for the reply and the encouragement.

    Well, you see, Once the clock had run a day or 2 and was losing, I decided to move it to a very much firmer shelf. This is where I do my 400 day tuning up. Oh dear - so careful but now she is fluttering and I have withdrawn in some disgust.

    Yeah she's level, and making only 170 deg of rotation. The overswing is very slightly uneven at <3/8" at one end and >3/8" the other. Yes and it is very difficult to set-up. I mean "critical" would not describe it. The tiniest adjustment and she will stop. I think we're close now to a "satisfactory" result. It just needs a tinker. I'm wondering about half a drop of oil on the EW? Waddayerfink?

    Somewhat as an aside I will explain that this is just the second Midget torsion I have worked on. (I have done several other types though). The other Midget is a Schatz Jum/7 - again with a pin-pallet arrangement BUT one which runs extremely adjacent to the EW. It's as if flexing of the pins might have been an issue? It has the same spec Horolvar suspension spring. Yes it goes. Somewhat erratic over a week it will be say +/- 3 mins. I have come not to expect any better.

    It does seem to me that for accuracy these clocks need to have a disc pendulum, and be wound up (kept in the mid-region of the MS), much more frequently, and also have a much longer suspension spring, if any kind of accuracy is to to be achieved. They are just a novelty - a lovely one I grant you, but as timekeepers no! The taller clocks seem to work much better. The ATMOS has a very good reputation for reliable performance and accuracy. Do you have any thoughts on that? Oh yeah it's a quality item!

    The time passes on!
    Best regards,
    Berry
     
  38. MartinM

    MartinM Registered User

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    Trying the oil is an option that is easily reversed.
     

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