Kundo minature circa early seventies

[Wes Luloff]

New member here and need some help.
I have completely disassembled a Kundo minature back plate 1406J, cleaned, installed new main spring, put back together, oiled all pivots, and installed new suspension wire.
Prior to disassembly took a lot of photographs with my Ipad, to ensure it was put together correctly, plus I had an identical parts clock for reference.
Once it was reassembled I moved the anchor pin manually and observed that all the gears were turning.
The first time I attached a new suspension spring the pendulum would not turn, I put a small kink in it, so I then replaced it.
The pendulum now rotates well. It was rewound.
Now I find that the pendulum rotates well, but does not the anchor pin. I took off the pendulum and suspension spring a number of times and again manually moved the anchor pin to observe the gears working and no binding, it moves very easily and you can see the escapment wheel engaging and moving as well as the other smaller gears. But as soon as the suspension spring and pendulum are attached (no binding) and rotates it fails to move the anchor pin. What am I doing wrong? I have 400 day clock repair manual and have read it a number of times to figure out my problem without any success.
Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks.

 

[KurtinSA]

Welcome to the message board! Are you sure the clock is in beat? When you look from the back of the clock at the action of the fork as it moves back and forth on the anchor pin, does the anchor pin move equally to the left and to the right? Ideally, the anchor pin should move about 4 degrees to the left of center and an equal 4 degrees to the right of center. If it doesn't do that and/or is way off, the clock won't run.

Kurt

 

[Wes Luloff]

Welcome to the message board! Are you sure the clock is in beat? When you look from the back of the clock at the action of the fork as it moves back and forth on the anchor pin, does the anchor pin move equally to the left and to the right? Ideally, the anchor pin should move about 4 degrees to the left of center and an equal 4 degrees to the right of center. If it doesn't do that and/or is way off, the clock won't run.

Kurt

That is the problem Kurt, the fork and anchor pin will not move once attached to the pendulum by the suspension spring, the anchor pin and escapment wheel moves freely without the pendulum attached, as soon as it is attached the pendulum rotates as it should, but the fork and anchor pin do not move.

 

[Wayne A]

fork and anchor pin will not move once attached to the pendulum by the suspension spring,

As in not move at all? If thats the case it sounds like the fork is too tight and holding the pin. It takes very little friction here to prevent operation.

The beat can be so far off that nothing happens as well but typically the pin would be off to one side the whole time.

 

[Wes Luloff]

As in not move at all? If thats the case it sounds like the fork is too tight and holding the pin. It takes very little friction here to prevent operation.

The beat can be so far off that nothing happens as well but typically the pin would be off to one side the whole time.

I opened up the fork a bit, so there is no friction now. I then attached the suspension spring without putting the fork in the pin and observed. The fork was now moving back and forth so I know now that the power is being transferred up to the fork. I will read up again on putting the clock in beat, seem to have missed something, will check the forum on that that may offer me a better understanding of the process.

 

[Wes Luloff]

I opened up the fork a bit, so there is no friction now. I then attached the suspension spring without putting the fork in the pin and observed. The fork was now moving back and forth so I know now that the power is being transferred up to the fork. I will read up again on putting the clock in beat, seem to have missed something, will check the forum on that that may offer me a better understanding of the process.

 

[Wes Luloff]

Okay made some progress, got everything moving now, but it is out of beat. I understand the principle but having difficulty actually doing this, can get it to run for about 5 minutes now, the adjustment on saddle screw is very sensitive. I know I have to stop the pendulum at a certain point to give it a quarter turn to overswing to reset. I have one of those beat adjustment tools, but don't know how to attach and can't seem to find a video to show how to use it and set the beat. Will keep at it.

 

[Wayne A]

Yes the adjustment is very sensitive, only thousandths in range so its easy to overshoot. The drop to drop beat setting method is about the easiest way to set the beat but you still have to make the precise adjustments but it gets easier.

This Video may help.

 

[MuseChaser]

I do it by feel without a beat adjustment tool. If you rotate the saddle enough to see that you've rotated it, unless your clock is grossly out of beat, you may be going to far. I haven't needed to use a protractor diagram or any other tool other than my fingers, my eyes, and a small screwdriver to loosen the saddle set screw, and so far this has worked for me every time.

1. Set the clock up so that you can easily see the pallets interacting with the escape wheel teeth from the back.
2. Starting from whatever position the pendulum rests in when it's completely still, wind the pendulum half a turn. Direction doesn't matter.
3. Release pendulum and carefully watch the pallets and escape wheel for a while, keeping an eye on the pendulum at the same time. Watch for...

a) When an escape wheel tooth lands on a pallet after the other pallet releases a tooth.
b) IMMEDIATELY take note of how far the pendulum continues to rotate after that point.
c) Then note when an escape wheel tooth lands on the other pallet. If step a) was the entrance pallet, then step c) would be the exit pallet ... or vice versa.
d) IMMEDIATELY take note of how far the pendulum continues to rotate after THAT point.

After doing so, slightly loosen the set screw with a screwdriver in one hand while holding the saddle/top block holding screw/top block "fin" (if there is one... usually is on a Schatz) between thumb and finger in the other hand, putting SLIGHT rotational pressure with thumb and finger in the direction OPPOSITE the direction in which the pendulum has the most overswing until you just barely FEEL it move a bit. Gently retighten the set screw while still holding the saddle assembly in your other hand... so you can feel if you accidentally move it when retightening the screw.

Repeat that process until the pendulum moves the same amount to either side after the teeth land on each pallet. If your anchor pin is not perfectly vertical, at right angles to the anchor, your fork may not look like it's moving the same amount to each side. It's better if the pin is vertical and the fork does, but as long as the clock is in beat, that's the main thing.

If you can continue to observe an out-of-beat clock as it runs down and eventually stops, you'll see which pallet isn't getting enough swing... it's the one OPPOSITE the one that first fails to release a tooth. Turn the saddle towards that one slightly... and repeat the observation process.

Much harder to describe, I just learned, than it is to do. I really enjoy this part of setting up a clock. It's almost like meditation. Spend the quiet time, breathe slowly..... be one with the clock. Ohhhhmmmmmmmmm.......

Like I said, I've only had one clock where the problem WAS in the adjustment of pallet engagement height, even thought it sure LOOKED like that was the problem at first (at least, to this newbie). The problems are almost always in getting the beat right and getting rid of any friction (making sure the suspension spring isn't contacting a guard anywhere, the adjusting disc of the pendulum isn't contacting a guard around it on a 53, the bottom of the pendulum slightly contacting the circular keep on the base, and of course a clean and properly, sparingly lubricated movement). If the anchor looks like it's moving jerkily instead of relatively smoothly, make sure the anchor pin is smooth (fingernail test) and that the fork's inner surfaces are also smooth, not pinching or binding against the anchor pin, nor excessively wide. Issues with fork binding have been the second most common issue I've found... after beat issues.

Fork height - Like another poster (maybe KurtinSA? Can't recall for sure), I've found that I like to start with my fork just a tad lower than the templates in the Terwilliger book, and try to set it so that the movement will flutter a bit when the fork is centered and the pendulum at rest.

 

[KurtinSA]

I think this saddle has a screw on the top which is used to lock down the saddle once the beat is found. But if that screw is way loose, it will be impossible. I try to get some tension in that screw so that just the mere touching it doesn't change things. Then with a little finger pressure it will move. I don't have the beat setting tool, but I find, on some saddles and top blocks, there's a bit of space above the block that let's me use an ice pick or strong dental tool. This gives me leverage as the beat setting tool does and I can use the ice pick to nudge the saddle a bit either direction. The trick will be that when you have the beat set, it's necessary to lock the screw down...but there's a chance that the beat could be changed doing that.

Kurt

 

[Wayne A]

Think most of us end up using slightly different methods that works for us. I like to use the lock down screw as an adjustment point by setting the screw in the upper block hanger with blue locktite while the block is sung but still able to rotate using leverage. This way I can use an offset screw driver to make adjustments while watching the screw with high magnification so I can see the smallest rotation change. So after getting the beat set I don't touch the screw again because its tight enough to not move by itself.
The drop to drop beat setting method outlined in Joe Rabushka's book can be done in a couple of minutes or less with practice.

 

[whatgoesaround]

One thing that really helps me on eyeballing this is to move the pendulum so that the escapement is just released by hand. Then let it go and see how much overswing is on the other side and compare to when it comes back. If one side does not trip you know which way to move it. If they both trip, by having such a small overswing, it is easy to compare how much to move. Once they are equal, the overswing should eventually build. I also agree with Kurt that I leave the screw friction tight. It is much easier to do small adjustments and less likely to allow for movement when you tighten it when finished.

 

[Wes Luloff]

One thing that really helps me on eyeballing this is to move the pendulum so that the escapement is just released by hand. Then let it go and see how much overswing is on the other side and compare to when it comes back. If one side does not trip you know which way to move it. If they both trip, by having such a small overswing, it is easy to compare how much to move. Once they are equal, the overswing should eventually build. I also agree with Kurt that I leave the screw friction tight. It is much easier to do small adjustments and less likely to allow for movement when you tighten it when finished.

 

[Wes Luloff]

I am making progress, the clock was severely out of beat, lots of experimenting and adjustments, each one of your ideas were incorporated at some point, still out of beat, but at least starting to run longer, starting to get the hang of it, and understand the analogy of the swing that I read somewhere, thanks. Also note that on this Kundo minature, the pendulum rotates quite a bit more than the regular size.