Kundo Clock Help Needed

kellycru5

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Hello. First time post. First time working on a clock. Have Kundo (1379) took it apart and cleaned and oiled completely. Sent main spring to be replaced at Horolovar and oiled. Replaced and put clock together. Ran 15 minutes and no more. Any suggestions? Tried adjusting saddle for beat but still no luck. Thanks for anyones help.
 

kellycru5

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Aug 6, 2019
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Hello. First time post. First time working on a clock. Have Kundo (1379) took it apart and cleaned and oiled completely. Sent main spring to be replaced at Horolovar and oiled. Replaced and put clock together. Ran 15 minutes and no more. Any suggestions? Tried adjusting saddle for beat but still no luck. Thanks for anyones help.
IMG_6102.jpeg IMG_6103.jpeg
 

kellycru5

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Hello all. Update on this clock. Set the beat. Adjusted fork downwards 1 mm on spring. Removed hands on clock. Main spring wound 2 turns only. Unable to run for more than 15 minutes.
 

KurtinSA

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Thanks for the pictures. I can see that it is a pin-pallet movement...these are a little more difficult to deal with. One thing that you should check is that the fork tines are adjusted correctly. The tines must not be clamped to the vertical anchor pin...there needs to be a gap equal to about the thickness of a piece of paper. On the other hand, if the gap is much larger than that, that is also not good.

Winding to 2 turns only is going to be on the low end of the power from the main spring. If the clock were to run at that point, that would give good confidence that the clock will run for well over 9-10 months. You might want to turn about one more time just to be sure there is enough power.

Kurt
 

kellycru5

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Thanks KurtinSA for the reply. I am barely able to get a piece of paper between the forks. Will try winding another turn. Anything else I should look at or disassemble and clean and oil again? Can you tightened the screws that hold the halves of the works together so that it binds the movement to the pivot holes?
 

Wayne A

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Can you post a close up video of the escapment including the fork.
 

whatgoesaround

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Your fork could possibly be too tight if it is hard to get a paper between it at rest. There needs to be that much space at the end of the rotation so that it can give a nudge in the opposite direction when the pin is released from the escape wheel. The video Warne suggested will allow a view of this among other things.
 

kellycru5

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Wayne thanks for the suggestion but a 29 second file .mp4 won't download as file is too big. Any suggestions cause I have got a great video of the escapement in action
 

KurtinSA

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Do you have access to any web storage to put up the movie and then link back to us? How about youtube? A number of years ago, I created a youtube account which lets me put stuff up once in a while...I don't have a "channel".

Kurt
 

Wayne A

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Wayne thanks for the suggestion but a 29 second file .mp4 won't download as file is too big. Any suggestions cause I have got a great video of the escapement in action
Suggest youtube, its easy enough and what I use, can load long videos.
 

kellycru5

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Hello again. Here is a drop box link to the video showing the escapement wheel. Hope this gives you all some info to figure this out. Thanks for all your help

 

KurtinSA

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Doesn't look like it's in beat. One pin drops off the pallet and just stays right there. The other pin drops off and continues to move away from the pallet. That suggests the over swing is not even which means the clock is not in beat.

Kurt
 
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kellycru5

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Thanks Kurt. Took about 1/2 hour to get into beat. Its easier for me to do sound rather than visual. No Rough I did not oil the pins was I supposed to? Also the clock is level because the pendulum does not hit the guide sides(cup in bottom). It still is running for 15 minutes max.
 

roughbarked

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Can't really go wrong by oiling pallet pins in my book.
I am aware that some say 400 day clocks don't need oiling but in my experience pin pallets go better with oil.

In beat by overswing can be observed by placing a small ball of rolled up plasticene on the base plate at each end of swing and another where the pallet drops off. You will notice that the gaps between these balls needs to be evened.
 

Wayne A

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The beat does appear to be off, there is more rotation as the anchor's pin swings left than to the right by a good bit.. The escapment lock's are not ideal but see what can be done to even up the beat before I would suggest bending on the peninsula.

Hard to judge the placement of the fork below the upper block, should be about 3.8mm gap to start, often it ends up a little lower to get enough overswing for the clock to run.
 

kellycru5

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Thanks Rough. Put it into proper beat and it ran for 12 hours. Stopped it and put the clock hands back on. When ran clock forward by hand when the minute and got to 10 it felt tighter as I was winding it forward loosened up at 2. Clock ran for 5 minutes and stopped. Took hands off, minute hand was at 12. Clock started again and only ran 5 minutes with the hands off. Any suggestions on why would run with hands off and not with hands on. I was thinking since it bound up a little as minute hand was at 10 til 2 that it was something to do with it. But being a newbie don't know. Thanks everyone
 

KurtinSA

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The basic issue with running w/and w/o the hands is just power first...but could be interference or friction and not enough power to push through it. Depends on what's binding when moving the minute hand manually. Sometimes that's just the way they are, but if the parts that are binding have to do with moving the cannon pinion which interfaces with the other parts in front of the clock, then that's a problem. You will need to visually inspect the motion works and how the hands are attached to verify they turn free. Sometimes this needs to be done with the movement apart except for the center arbor to which everything attaches. Get a feeling for how it all moves as you slowly put new items on...as soon as you begin to feel or see some binding, that's something you'll need to fix. Does the center arbor run true or is there some runout? If the wobbling of the center arbor is too much, it can drive the motion works closer to each other which might cause some binding.

Kurt
 

kellycru5

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Rough was right about oiling the pallet pins cause when I did that the clock ran fine. I put the minute hand on by itself and the clock kept running. When I put only the hour hand on the clock keeps running also. Does anyone know the correct (tension)washer set up on the cannon pinion? I have this pic and I assume that the clock face goes on then the hour hand and minute hand and brass washer then pin.

Kundo tension washers.jpg
 

Wayne A

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Rough was right about oiling the pallet pins cause when I did that the clock ran fine. I put the minute hand on by itself and the clock kept running. When I put only the hour hand on the clock keeps running also. Does anyone know the correct (tension)washer set up on the cannon pinion? I have this pic and I assume that the clock face goes on then the hour hand and minute hand and brass washer then pin.

View attachment 641591
Pin pallets escapements have more friction, I use a dry film teflon on mine.

The spring arrangement in this picture is the way I like to assemble them. Since the spring and flat washer rotates normally with the minute arbor its not going to make allot of difference as long as nothing rubs the plate or motion works.
 

kellycru5

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Hello
Well 24 hours have gone by with hands on and it is still running. I am in the process of setting the speed since it is losing time(1.5 hour in 24 yesterday). Thank you for all your help and I am pleased to have found this group and joined. If I need anymore expert advice I'll holler.
 
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KurtinSA

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Nice to hear! You're losing 3.75 minutes per hour. Not sure the regulation that's available on the pendulum is going to get you there. You should turn the pendulum to full fast and then recheck your rate. If it doesn't get there, you'll need to increase the suspension spring by at least 0.0001" possibly more.

Kurt
 

kellycru5

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Hello all. Well Kurt you were right. I put the pendulum to full fast and had to back off 2.5 turns and now it is dialed in. So got lucky. Here is my next project. I know it is plate 1389 and a K O. Does anyone know what year it is? Am changing the suspension spring today because it flutters (Fork placement) and doesn't keep good time. Will let you know how it turns out! Thanks for all of your help.
IMG_6124.jpeg IMG_6122.jpeg
 

KurtinSA

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The repair guide suggests 1950 for the date. Why are you changing the suspension spring...because it flutters? Typically you would just move the fork position. If you can't get 8 beats in 60 seconds with the suspension spring, that might be a good reason to change.

Kurt
 

kellycru5

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Kurt. No its short, the pendulum doesn't fit in cup even and there is a kink about 1 inch from the bottom end. These 2 clocks have sat in my parents house for 30-40 years without being touched so being a newbie I am trying my best. Thanks for your help!!
 

KurtinSA

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From the picture, the length looks more or less OK. A kink in the lower portion of the spring is not an earthshattering situation...probably more cosmetic than anything.

Kurt
 

kellycru5

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Hello. My Kundo miniature was running fine for 3 days and this am the minute hand had stopped moving at the 7. The clock is still humming along but the hand won't move. Any suggestions please?
 

KurtinSA

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Is the cross pin still in the end of the arbor? Sounds like there's not enough tension to secure the hand to the arbor.

Kurt
 

kellycru5

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When I touch the hour hand and the minute and is between 7 and 11 it will drop back wards 5-7 minutes each time until it hits 6.
 

KurtinSA

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You've lost the tension that holds the minute hand in place. One of your pictures showed the tension washer and a flat washer which went onto the arbor first. Then the cannon pinion goes over that...there's appears to be a squared end at the far end of the pinion onto which the minute hand must seat onto. A coned washer goes over all that along with the cross taper pin. All of that must be in place and the tension washer must be providing some cushion/spring when the taper pin goes in place. Be sure all of that is still set up correctly.

Kurt
 
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kellycru5

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No tension washer to be found .Will get an order out. Thanks Kurt I'll let you know how it goes when get washer.
 

kellycru5

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Rough and Kurt I cannot find the one in the picture. Must have lost it. Tried to get some from Timesavers but they are way big. Can't find anyone who sells them online? Please let me know if I am missing something
 

KurtinSA

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I bought a bag of them from the Horolovar Store 2-3 years ago. Where are you located? Maybe a local chapter near you could provide some help.

Kurt
 

kellycru5

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So it has been 24 hours since I got the tension washer and the clock is humming along losing a little less than a minute a day. I will not complain. I was able to get washers from Laurie(?) at the Horolovar store. They also replaced my mainspring and serviced it. Timesavers had some washers and coned washers too. Thanks for all your help.
 

KurtinSA

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So are you able to adjust that out? I think the total adjustment on the typical pendulum is 4 minutes per hour or really +/- 2 minutes per hour from the mid point. You're at 30 seconds per hour.

Kurt
 

KurtinSA

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Better to know sooner than later. Turn the adjuster a number of times and see what happens. You'll know in an hour if you have enough adjustment range or not. As typically posted here, you want to be adjusting from a position of being too fast...potentially slowly the clock down doesn't keep introducing slack in the mechanism. You should try and get it on the fast side a) to know you can and b) begin the process of slowing it into time.

Kurt
 

kellycru5

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After a week of running and keeping good time the Kundo mini just stopped. Everytime I start it it stops within 10 minutes. Did not touch anything!

Any suggestions/
 

KurtinSA

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BTDT! This type of thing is pretty frustrating and difficult to track down. If it's stopping consistently in less than 10 minutes...and that is dependent on how much you initially rotate the pendulum...there might a specific conflict on one pinion and one wheel. But in that short of time, I'm not sure what is coming around again to match up in that short of time. Clearly something with the escape wheel and whatever it is engaging with.

Look for obvious things...make sure it's wound, recheck the beat, etc. If nothing comes up, it might mean tearing it down and going through it all over again.

Kurt
 

Wayne A

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Yes yes this sort of thing happens! Typically there's something wrong somewhere. Only turning for 10 minutes is not really running. Perhaps someone or thing bumped the clock?
Don't have the gearing mapped out for that plate but wheel's in the upper end of the train turn faster and are a place to look for debris or bent teeth, burs, etc.
I'd try to set the beat and see if it will run again. Does the escape wheel seem to drop with the same power as before?

Wayne
 

kellycru5

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Removed the hands and face and started from scratch from the washer on pinion shaft out wards. I don't think I am getting enough and then too much friction between hands and washers. I am going to get 2-3000 grit pads to polish the brass on hands. I don't know how you guys do it going from running smooth as can be for a week and then I can't keep it going for more than a 1/2 hour now. I did reset the beat, the escape wheel turns the same. I got to believe that its the hands and tension washer somehow cause thats when it stopped going good. Thanks guys!?
 

KurtinSA

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You should be able to eyeball the hands on how they're set onto the cannon pinion and hour wheel...easy enough to ensure there's plenty of clearance.

Kurt
 

Wayne A

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Can always test run it without the hands or motion works to see if that solves the frequent stop of the clock.
 

kellycru5

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Well took the hands off and still stopping in about 40 minutes. Guess I will tear down and start over. Thanks all
 

kellycru5

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Hi. Well tore the Kundo mini down. With hands it stops in 10 minutes. Hands off has been going now for 5 hours. Any suggestions on why the hands are causing it to stop? I'll try anything at this point. When the hands are on if I push the hour hand on all the way (with washers) in then there is extra space on the cannon pinion (rod) so no tension when put the cap on the outside of hands and put the holding pin in. The minute hand just feebly goes to the 6. Should I add washers (flat) until I get a little resistance when the cap goes on. Thanks folks
 

kellycru5

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Hey Rough. so I put the bent edge facing out against the flat washer (so the cup is facing inwards to the plate). The flat washer then is touching the hour hand. There seems to be a lot of play so maybe a second tension washer facing out against the flat washer?
 

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