ATO Kundo Kundo ATO Grief

Discussion in 'Electric Horology' started by Les Sanders, Apr 21, 2017.

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  1. Les Sanders

    Les Sanders Registered User
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    This is one that was made before lockdown screws, It was running fine except for pendulum wobble, one side of the suspension was broken, so I changed the Suspension. No run condition was the result. so I removed the movement and oiled all of the pivots and put it back together and will escape about 12 teeth then stops, it has a 2 AA battery replacement and 2 new AA. Here is a picture of the escape I have adjusted it up and down 1/4 turn it wants to run. Any Ideas. 302462.jpg
     

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  2. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    #2 KurtinSA, Apr 21, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2017
    Mine's been running fine after getting the AA battery tray for installation under the clock. About the only adjustment I made in the area you picture was to change the angle of that protruding fork so that it caught only one tooth at a time. Initially it was skipping a tooth and getting two at a time. In one of the threads about 3-4 months ago, I believe it was Burkhard who showed where the pamphlets were that describes those adjustments.

    https://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?139325-Seth-Thomas-Kundo-Swinging-Pendulum-Battery-Clock&p=1079982&viewfull=1#post1079982

    Kurt
     
  3. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    This is one with the switch?
    You need to look at how the pawl works.
    You need to bring the pendulum right until the pawl just drops
    off the tooth. It shouldn't be too deep, just enough to grab the
    tooth. Note the amount from center.
    Bring the left and note the angle when it leave the tooth.
    It should be the same on either side.
    The depth is set by the one I assume you fuddle with.
    behind that are two screws. These adjust the balance.
    The one above may need to be loosened or tightened as
    you adjust,
    Make sure the switch is working and the the coil hasn't gone open
    before fiddling with the pawl.
    Inspect all the pivots for gunk. It may have had some gunk
    that tilting it sideways got it into the bushings.
    These bushings have almost zero load and really don't need oiling.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  4. Les Sanders

    Les Sanders Registered User
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    OK well I will continue, I even put the old broken one side suspension back in to no avail. Do I just test the coil for continuity? I just cleaned the movement 30 minutes ago! I have a coil in some parts I bought I will dig it out and see if it is for a Kundo!
     
  5. lmester

    lmester Registered User
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    It looks like this clock is similar to the one's that I've worked on. Clocks with electronic switching. No wires or contacts going to the movement or pendulum. See pictures.

    If so, a good test of the electronics and pendulum suspension is to just remove the movement. It's not needed for the pendulum to swing. If pendulum motion is good, check for friction in the movement and pawl adjustment. If the pendulum won't keep swinging then check suspension parts, pendulum alignment and finally the electronics.

    If your clock has a circuit board underneath the base, you can test the coil for continuity. Use a multimeter with a low voltage resistance function. With a standard meter you should disconnect the coil from the circuit board before measuring.


    302497.jpg 302498.jpg
     
  6. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    I believe you can see the lever on his movement
    on the right for the mechanical switch.
    I don't think it is the electronic switched model.
    The switch contacts are always a likely suspect.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  7. Les Sanders

    Les Sanders Registered User
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    It is mechanical and is opening and closing!
     
  8. lmester

    lmester Registered User
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    Clear down at the lower right edge of the picture? I think you're right. A larger picture would be nice. If so, the contacts are certainly one of the first things to check. Also, if it's the mechanical switched version any multimeter is fine for testing the coil and contacts.
     
  9. lmester

    lmester Registered User
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    Sorry, I must have been posting at the same time as you. It's been some time since I worked on the mechanical version. Unfortunately it wasn't my clock and I had to give it back after the repair. :( I believe it was a Kundo but don't remember for sure. Please post a picture showing the entire mechanism.

    If I remember correctly, you can still do the same movement test by adjusting the pawl so that it no longer contacts the ratchet wheel. See if it runs without driving the movement. If so, it's a movement problem. If not, check the coil, suspension and switch adjustment.
     
  10. praezis

    praezis Registered User

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    No, it will not work here. The contact is operated by the turning ratchet wheel via a lever.
    Frank
     
  11. Les Sanders

    Les Sanders Registered User
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    #11 Les Sanders, Apr 22, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 22, 2017
    Ok, I took some more pictures 302462.jpg 302639.jpg 302640.jpg 302641.jpg 302642.jpg
     
  12. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    If you have an analog meter you can put it on volts
    and see the needle jump when the switch makes contacts.
    Looking on an oscilloscope across the coil would be best.
    There would be the voltage of the cell and then the flyback
    voltage when the points opened.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  13. Les Sanders

    Les Sanders Registered User
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    Thanks, I did one suggested test, no movement just the pendulum, batteries in stops after 5 minutes, batteries out stops after 5 minutes! I don't work on many of these so I am a little lost!
     
  14. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    You need to get a meter to measure with. Even if the points
    look to be working, they may not be.
    Only measure ohms with the batteries removed.
    These are about as simply as one can get.
    There is a magnet in the bob. As it swings, the switch
    contacts are energized. The coil either pulls
    or pushes on the pendulum.
    Do make sure the battery is in the right polarity.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  15. lmester

    lmester Registered User
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    Sorry, I gave you bad advice. The pictures help a lot. The contacts are mounted on and driven by the movement of this clock. You'll need to have the movement in place.

    Your test does tell me an important fact. 5 minutes of pendulum motion with no impulse tells me that you probably don't have anything wrong with the pendulum & suspension.

    First, since the clock was running before you replaced the suspension spring, I'd look for something related to that change. Did the position of the pawl change? Possibly the new spring is a little longer or shorter than the original? Is the spring a lot thicker or thinner than the original? I'd expect that there are no electrical problems. I think it's most likely that the pawl needs re-adjusted.

    I adjust it by lowering it until it reliably advances the ratchet wheel by one tooth. Then lower it slightly more to be sure that it won't randomly skip. If it's advancing by two teeth it's too low.

    Also, these clocks have very little pendulum impulse power. Any friction in the movement can stop the clock. Even thick oil on the pivots can stop it. I'd suggest using no oil or a very light watch oil.

    Next are some electrical tests that you can perform.

    Do you have some type of multimeter? A meter that can measure voltage and resistance? In this case an analog meter (the old type with a needle and a scale) would be best. A modern digital meter will also work.

    If you have a meter you can do some basic electrical tests.

    I have no idea how much experience you have with electronics. I'll start with some simple instructions. This may be far more detail than you need to perform the test.

    First test for continuity through the coil and contacts. With the impulse contacts on the movement closed you should measure the resistance of the coil. when contacts are open, you should have an open circuit.

    With the clock assembled and batteries removed, connect your meter leads to the battery contacts. Look for the wires going to the battery holder. connect one lead to each contact that has a wire attached.

    Set your meter to measure resistance (ohms). If it has multiple resistance ranges set it to a higher range 10K ohm, 100K etc. With the contacts on the movement held open you should see an open circuit. No needle movement on an analog mater. An over range indication on a digital meter.

    With the contacts held closed you should see a low resistance reading.

    Basically, if you see a change in resistance between contacts open and contacts closed it very likely that the coil is good and the circuit is wired correctly.

    You should also measure directly on the wires that connect to the coil. A resistance reading greater than a short (a few ohms) but not an open circuit means that the coil is good.

    I don't have information for this clock. Typically ATO clock coils can have a resistance up into the thousands of ohms.

    These coils almost always fail with an open circuit.

    Next connect the meter leads across the impulse contacts. Manually open and close the contacts and verify that the resistance switches from short to open.

    If you find no problems with these tests, next will be to verify that the contacts are switching during normal clock operation. During normal operation the contacts will only be briefly closed. Unless you have a multimeter with advanced functions it's not going to be able to detect this.

    As Tinker said, an oscilloscope would be a good tool to test this. I expect that you don't have one. If you get to this point, I'll need to think of an alternate way to test it.
     
  16. Tim Orr

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    Good afternoon, Les!

    It may not be your specific problem, but I would not oil one of these movements, and I would suggest you might want to clean any oil out of it from the oiling you mentioned earlier. There's no mainspring tension on anything here, so oil is more likely to just gum things up than to keep things running. I suppose one might consider just a little on the pawl because there might be sliding friction there, but even in that case, friction may be minimal.

    I have several of these types of clock. All are running "dry." (With the exception of a little oil on the pawl tip and pivot.)

    Best regards!

    Tim Orr
     
  17. Les Sanders

    Les Sanders Registered User
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    Mission Control - We have lift off - 4 hours of steady running! Thanks to lmster, Tinker Dwight, Kurtin and Tim Orr! You Clocksmiths are what this board and the NAWCC are all about! I followed all of your input regarding testing the circuits and coil testing all were A OK then the pawl it was the main problem it was adjusted off center and at a angle, I adjusted it to the center and level on the gear and tightened all the screws, I did not oil the movement after cleaning and it took off like a rocket! I will sleep well tonight. Again Thank You!
     
  18. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    Glad to hear it was only an adjustment.
    You really don't want to wind a coil.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  19. lmester

    lmester Registered User
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    #19 lmester, Apr 23, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2017
    Great! I'm glad that you got it running. Good news that the coil is OK! As Tinker said, you REALLY don't want to rewind the coil. Even with a coil winding jig, it's a long boring task. If your mind wanders, you end up breaking the wire part way through the rewind. Don't ask me how I know :whistle:

    An old timer that got me started in electronics had a name for that thin magnet wire. He called it "Frog hair"

    Also, could you put up a picture of the assembled clock? ATO and other early battery electric clocks are my favorites. I have several different types. I've repaired some of the mechanically switched early ATO's but don't own one. They're harder to find and are out of my price range. I'd also love to have a bulle clock. They're way above my price point!
     
  20. Les Sanders

    Les Sanders Registered User
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    #20 Les Sanders, Apr 23, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 23, 2017
    One thing I noticed as I was putting the dial and the hands on was the condition of the points. Do these look correct or do I need to straighten them out? 302778.jpg 302779.jpg 302780.jpg
     
  21. Les Sanders

    Les Sanders Registered User
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    #21 Les Sanders, Apr 23, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 23, 2017
    Well I went ahead and straightened the forked copper points and straightened the brass plate adjusted them so they were doing their job. Then I disassembled the pawl the plate that it is mounted too was bent straightened it put it all back together adjusted the pawl and back to a running clock! If I can't undo shoddy workmanship why bother! Thanks Again! 302858.jpg 302859.jpg
     
  22. John Hubby

    John Hubby Senior Administrator Emeritus
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    Les, thanks for giving us the opportunity to see one of these early (1950s) Kundos put back in operation.

    My research shows this purely electro-mechanical movement model was only made for about 4-6 years in the mid-late 1950s to early 1960s. During this time Kundo developed their first transistor switched model that had a separate circuit board with a "C" size battery compartment (two variants, one with separate battery compartment and one combined). The third version (mid-1960s) reduced the size of the circuit board and the battery to use a AA size in a much smaller integrated unit. The fourth (and final, with only a few tweaks) version in the late 1960s placed the switching circuit inside the pendulum coil, with a separate AA size battery compartment under the base.

    Very interesting clocks, and good runners provided the electrics/electronics are in good order. They can keep quite good time with a little care adjusting the pendulum rating weight, better than the average gravity pendulum clock.
     
  23. Les Sanders

    Les Sanders Registered User
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    Thanks John, its always a labor of Love to bring clocks back to life!
     
  24. lmester

    lmester Registered User
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    They definitely got bent somehow. Since it had a broken suspension spring, some excess force may have been applied. I think you said that this model doesn't have a pendulum lock. It may have been transported with the pendulum banging around. Who knows what's happened to it in the last 50+ years. It should run better now that you've straightenened the contacts.

    Also, Nice pictures. The oval dome style is my favorite. Good job bringing it back to life!
     
  25. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    Most of them that I've seen use the Kundo battery and not standard cells.
    The interconnect wire used was a problem source for the coils. The insulation
    deteriorated and cause corrosion in the coils. This seems to be the most
    common issue.
    I've noticed that you want to adjust the rate on a surface that you expect to
    run it on. It runs different on a wood table than on top of the refrigerator.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  26. MartinM

    MartinM Registered User

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    I've never seen this configuration, but people keep saying the movement is part of the pendulum drive.
    I'm not seeing that.
    The contacts just happen to be mounted on the movement, putting them into a position that they can be acted upon by the pendulum.
    Along those lines, have you made sure the pendulum and the contacts are in the same plane (That the pendulum is physically contacting whatever it is that opens the points)? It's pretty easy to install these springs on an angle causing the pendulum/rod to be closer or farther from the movement.
     
  27. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    I think what is meant is that the switch is attached to the movement.
    It is actuated by the lever that is a detent on the escapement wheel.
    It only energizes when the detent goes over the tips of the escapement
    wheel. It is not directly driven by the pendulum. It is the pawl that pushes
    the escapement and the escapement lifts the lever that actuates the switch.
    There is no connect between the pendulum and the switch.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  28. MartinM

    MartinM Registered User

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    Heh. Somehow, when looking at the posted pics, my brain just wasn't registering that great massive arm between the pawl and the points.
    Sometimes I just see what I want to and can't see anything else.
     
  29. Tinker Dwight

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    Too much rain and snow this year. It must be cabin fever.
    Dwight
     
  30. roughbarked

    roughbarked Registered User

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    You guys.. I know that being shut in during weather contributed to actual watchmaking skills but hey I am glad that this never actually occurs here. Kudos for being able to survive it.
     
  31. MartinM

    MartinM Registered User

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    It has been quite the wet one!.
    I'll be getting out to the Scottish Festival, this weekend, so I'll get a recharge, then.
     

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