Kundo Anniversary Clock

Discussion in '400-Day & Atmos' started by Organist, Oct 14, 2019.

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  1. Organist

    Organist Registered User
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    I've got an anniversary clock on my shelf that I've been debating about working on. It needs a suspension spring for sure, but I want to take it apart and give a good cleaning to start. It has a Kieninger & Obergfell that is either plate 1367 or 1371 in the Horolovar book. About the only difference I can find is that some of the holes are different sizes. Apparently the parts are interchangeable.

    Is there anything I need to know about working on one of these? This will be a first time dealing with a barrel spring for me. I've got an Ollie Baker winder with all the goodies. I need to order a MONSTER key for the clock-- something like a 12. Is that a clue that the mainspring might be pretty powerful? Looking forward to replies. :)

    Thanks,
    Mike
     
  2. Organist

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    This clock has spots of green corrosion. What would cause this? Was it a cleaning solution? You can see rubbing marks for a cleaning. Is there a good way to clean this off? Here are a few pics of the pendulum.

    kundopen1.JPG kundopen2.JPG kundopen3.JPG
     
  3. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    You may be better off posting your questions in the "400 day & Atmos" forum. Maybe a moderator can move the thread over.

    Uhralt
     
  4. richiec

    richiec Registered User
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    The key is large and don't let the spring down without a let down tool as the bruise under the thumbnail hurts like heck.
     
  5. tracerjack

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    Use oil for mainspring lubrication, not grease. I find the movements are easy to clean and reassemble. Tiny screws on top and bottom blocks can be a pain when someone before cranks them in. Most time consuming is brass polishing. Corrosion is usually from liquid polish residue.
     
  6. R&A

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  7. shutterbug

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    400 day clocks are fairly simple and easy to work on. They share some of the precautions of French clocks though - small pivots that are easily bent or broken.
    The springs are not all that powerful, but the cautions noted above should be taken to heart. The clocks are intended to run a full year on a single winding, but I've found that winding at 6 months gives you a better time keeping experience. As you can imagine, everything has to be working perfectly to get a clock to run for a year.

    I'll move this to the 400 day forum for you.
     
  8. Wayne A

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    Yep corrosion looks like polish reside in hard to clean spots. Don't know whats the best polish is but I've been using brasso with good results. I'd suggest disposable nitrile gloves if your doing allot of work with brasso as it tends to peal skin.
     
  9. Les Sanders

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    For what it is worth after removing the factory lacquer I polish with Mothers Mag & Aluminum polish and then wax it with Renaissance. Works for me.
     
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  10. Organist

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  11. tracerjack

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    I only use Brasso for parts that can be washed in warm water to remove any residue. For parts with crevices that can’t be washed, I use paste polish, Flitz or Simichrome. Both work well.
     
  12. shutterbug

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    Maas is also very good, and completely non-abrasive.
     
  13. Organist

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    Is there a trick to getting the hour hand off? I thought it was held in place by friction. I can't get the thing off, and I'm afraid to pull too hard.
     
  14. KurtinSA

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    No, it should just twist off, but there might be some friction involved...I wouldn't pull so much as twist and walk it off. If the movement is still together, I think you can use a finger to lock the movement by holding one of the larger gears with the pad of the finger. Then you can twist the hour hand and your finger will be resisting the twisting motion. If you don't feel any movement of the hour hand, you might try a few small drops of a penetrant to help break any corrosion which might have built up.

    Kurt
     
  15. Organist

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    Thanks! Will try.
     
  16. Kevin W.

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    Some find putting them in beat is difficult, helps to read the guide for repairing these, that is the bible for 400 day clocks.
     
  17. Organist

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    I do have this book, and am glad. In fact, I'm thinking about buying another-- so I don't have to cart it between the house and the shop. This is new territory for me. It will be interesting to see how much of a difference there is between how I think it will be and the actual experience.
     
  18. MartinM

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    If the hour hand is thought too tight to remove by just slipping it off, you can dismantle the clock and center arbor (Make sure to capture the two washers you release by doing this).
    Then remove the dial from the front plate and you can access the whole hour pipe and gear and not take a chance on bending the gear or a tooth on it by forcing removal on an assembled clock.
     
  19. Organist

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    Thanks, Martin. I got it off. I gently nudged it and it broke loose. After that I disassembled the clock and cleaned it. It turned out nicely went back together with no problems (seemingly).
     
  20. Organist

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    #20 Organist, Oct 24, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2019
    Well, I got this thing back together. I think it together right. I needed to put a new suspension unit on it. I ordered the needed unit from Horolovar, and verified it was the right one with the book. So, it's not running yet.

    I thought it was in beat, but maybe not. If I understand correctly, the pendulum needs to turn, and stop at the click, then go the other way and stop when it clicks again. If I make a complete turn, the clock will run for only a few minutes before it stops. I'm thinking it may not be in beat after all. I say this simply because after having it torn completely down, then reassembled complete with new suspension unit, I can't that it would have went together all ready to go. I watched a video, but tomorrow I'll try again using the Horolovar book as a guide.

    This is a new kind of clock to get used to. We'll see how it goes.

     
  21. KurtinSA

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    It seems what you're missing is the over swing. The clock should not "stop" rotating at the click in each direction. The clock should continue to swing past the click in each direction...and the amount of continued swing must be the same as well as be the same amount in each direction. That would be the definition of being in beat. The amount of over swing needs to be "healthy"...I would expect to see another 20-25 degrees of rotation past the click.

    Sounds like the fork is too high on the suspension spring. It takes a lot of power with the fork too high plus the fork tines can bind with large movements to each side. Also be sure you have some gap between the fork tines and the anchor pin...the gap should be on the order of the thickness of a piece of paper.

    Kurt
     
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  22. shutterbug

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    Correct. Lowering the fork will increase the over swing, and at the same time decrease the total swing. You have to have over swing or the clock won't run.
     
  23. Organist

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    OK. I understand about the overswing. After I got it to what I thought was "in beat," I made 1 complete turn to start the clock. For a few min, there's overswing, but you can see it losing power with each turn. If it's that obvious of such a delicate clock, then there's something not right.

    When I got the suspension unit, the tines on the fork were bent inward, making it not possible to put around the pin. I opened it just enough to put it there. So, if I lower the fork it won't have to move as far to allow the escape wheel to move? I was expecting the teeth on the escape wheel to release when the pendulum turned a half turn. It actually goes further than that before releasing a tooth so it's about 3/4 of a turn between clicks.

    I am going out shortly, so I will lower the fork slightly and see what happen. I do have the old fork. When I got this clock, the lower half of the suspension unit was missing, but the top part was still there.

    Thanks!
     
  24. Wayne A

    Wayne A Registered User

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    Thing about the fork and pin is that there is vertical and horizontal movement as the components travel in there arc every beat. So the fork must not squeeze the pin, should have a thousandth or two of clearance or it will stop the clock. Too much clearance is a problem too.
     
  25. Organist

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    I had to open the fork tines just a bit more. They were touching. Then I loosend the screw and dropped the fork just a bit. I wonder if I dropped it too much-- when I turn the pendulum the tic tocks happen at about a quarter turn. Still, the pendulum and fork seem to be moving easier. I'm going to copy that little diagram in the Horolovar book and put it under there tomorrow. Even with a marked pendulum, it's hard to keep track of how the thing turns.
     
  26. Wayne A

    Wayne A Registered User

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    Using a degree wheel makes it easier for me to keep an eye on a clock. Here's one I found on the web and just scale it to the size needed when you print one out. I spin to set the zero on counter clockwise rotation, read total on cw rotation.

    Degree wheel  copy.jpg 20190926_161947.jpg
     
  27. KurtinSA

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    I use something like four toothpicks. I drop one toothpick at the end of a rotation for a given ball along the outer edge of the base. Then I watch that same ball and drop a toothpick when it reaches full rotation the other direction. The other two toothpicks are placed at the point where this same ball ticks for each direction. It allows for a good visualization of the state of beat. It's easy enough to determine degrees within say +/- 5 degrees. You know what 90 degrees looks like and 180 degrees...the middle of that is 135 degrees...and so on. Simple enough.

    Kurt
     
  28. shutterbug

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    I just use one or two of the posts as a reference. I can eyeball it pretty close to perfect with no more than that.
     
  29. Organist

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    OK. Here's where it stands now. I put the little protractor cut-out and lined it up as per the Horolaver book. The ticks were coming at different places on the protractor, so I tweaked the top adjustment. I'm not sure it's right yet. The ticks are happening as the mark crosses the lines perpendicular to the "0" mark. I need to take a longer video, but maybe this gives you an idea. The pendulem stops after about 15 min.

     
  30. KurtinSA

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    From what I can tell, it doesn't look like the amount of over swing is the same going each direction. I tried to watch when the minute hand moved and then noted how far the pendulum swung...seems to not be even.

    Kurt
     
  31. woodlawndon

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    Keep at it Organist. The 400 day clocks are fairly new to me too. I had probably serviced about 100 pendulum clocks and was quite comfortable with them, these guys are a bit more finicky. I have four of them, I serviced them as normal but had a heck of a time keeping them going. I'd pick them up, fiddle a bit and then put them back down for awhile, I just couldn't get them in beat. Finally, I seemed to crack the code in my mind and banged them off one by one, even did one for a friend. I finally enjoy them and they're all working well.

    Just a couple of things that worked for me: I reread the repair book front to back at least three times. If you're replacing the suspension wire, line it up and the blocks perfectly with the book examples, close doesn't seem to cut it. I used toothpicks like Kurt mentioned as a visual, it worked for me. Make very, very small adjustments when adjusting the beat, I found it amazing how such small tweaks made a huge difference. This was especially true for the old Shatz models where you are adjusting depth on the escape wheel. I also found that it seems to be crucial that the springs are very clean and slippery.

    Keep going, you'll get it just like I finally did, and I'm slow. i disliked them for quite awhile but now rather enjoy working on them. When you get it, it will be satisfying.
    Don
     
  32. Organist

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    OK. I don't know if this means anything, but the ticks don't seem to be very strong. Looking at the escape wheel, the exit seems louder than the entrance.
     
  33. Organist

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    Thanks for the encouragement, Woodlawn. I'm not expecting to get this overnight, but these are a little harder to get on the same page with. With mantle clocks, kitchen clocks, etc., They're easier to sort out, but these seem to be much more subtle.
     
  34. Wayne A

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    Setting the beat gets easy after a while and after you get the knack for it you will be thinking what was so hard? Whats hard is how tiny a window you have to set the beat, the arc of adjustment is only about 17 thousandths! The method of adjustment on the clocks is very coarse for such a small window, if you feel it moved you might have went too far... I use the method that you turn the pendulum in one direction to where the pallet drops for that direction, let it go and it should just make it to the other drop with nearly zero overswing, and make it back to start position the same way, when that happens you got it.
     
  35. KurtinSA

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    What Wayne says is the best way to get the clock in beat. You can make those adjustments and see results immediately...make another tweak and recheck. Once you feel you've got the drop-to-drop set right, then start the clock and use the toothpicks, etc., to visualize what happens under running condition. Then iterate as needed.

    Kurt
     
  36. Organist

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    I first tried Wayne's method. It seemed to be right, but I guess it wasn't. It was turning about 3/4 of a turn before each click.

    If the clock is in beat, does that mean the overswing be right? Or, if I get it in beat and the overswing is not right, then it isn't in beat?

    Thanks All!
     
  37. Organist

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    Yeah, I've had experience with other things. For a long time, I couldn't get my head around bushings.When I finally started doing it, it wasn't so bad. I haven't gotten myself into a bushing mess yet that I have to figure out how I'm going to get out of it.
     
  38. Wayne A

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    The way I in-vision this is setting the beat is a method to set the pendulum center of rotation in the center of the drops where it needs to be.

    Don't know but it may be possible for the escapement to be out of adjustment enough to see uneven over swings with proper beat? Never checked for that but I go though the escapement setup before trying to run a new to me clock anyway.
     
  39. Organist

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    Still plugging away at this. Should the ticks happen at 180 degrees from each other?
     
  40. KurtinSA

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    Can't say I've heard that statement before. I'd say no...it depends on the fork position, etc.

    Kurt
     
  41. tracerjack

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    Where the ticks happen depends on the movement. I have clocks with a total swing of 180 degrees, which includes the over swing, that run just fine. Others have almost a 360, and run no better than the others. What’s important is that the over swing after the tick is healthy and even on both sides.
     
  42. shutterbug

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    And with torsion clocks, the amount of swing does not affect the time keeping.
     
  43. KurtinSA

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    One way to assess if you have a good running clock is to see how much it builds in swing. Start the clock by releasing the pendulum just when the escape wheel tooth drops. If the swing gains from that point, you're in good shape. But if it can't gain from there, you'll need to investigate why.

    Kurt
     
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  44. Organist

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    I think that's where I am. When i get it close, it still doesn't want to go. I can see a visible reduction with each swing.
     
  45. etmb61

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    Kurt,

    That's a good point!

    Eric
     

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