Kundo anchor issues?

Discussion in '400-Day & Atmos' started by KurtinSA, Feb 17, 2019.

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  1. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    I have a Kundo miniature that I'm working on. It has the peninsula eccentric. The cleaning went well...I like the "snap" of the EW against the pallets. But I haven't been able to get the clock to run. I rechecked the drops...entrance was shallow and exit was larger...so I bent the peninsula so that the drops are much better. Didn't help the running of the clock. I read where dropping the pivot hole increase locks. I looked at them...I don't have much experience...but I guess they do look like they could be too much.

    But before I consider adjusting the pallets, I wonder what might be said about the current configuration of my anchor. One thing I usually check for is that with the anchor sitting on the pallets, is the pin pointing vertical. In this case, I thought it was OK. But at you can see from the various angles, the pallets are definitely adjusted differently and somewhere in the past, the pin was bent to compensate. There are a couple of bends in the pin as can be seen.

    In checking the escapement, I'm not getting the situation when the pin is vertical, the EW is about 1/3 down the impulse face. So that check isn't spot on.

    What should I do? I've never done much futzing with the pallets and the anchor.

    Thanks...Kurt

    Anchor1.jpg Anchor2.jpg Anchor3.jpg
     
  2. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
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    You will have to adjust the pallets and straighten the anchor pin for this one to run correctly. The imbalance of impulse from the present badly adjusted configuration is most likely why the clock won't run.
     
  3. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    I shortened the longer pallet by 0.3mm but now have the EW teeth landing on the impulse face. Guess that was too much. As for straightening the pin, I'm a bit concerned about breaking it. Never have that before.

    Kurt
     
  4. tracerjack

    tracerjack Registered User
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    Someone either posted, or I read it in the Guide, to grasp the pin near the base with needle pliers to prevent the pin from breaking off at the base. I used just finger pressure to gently straighten the pin.
     
  5. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    I'm hearing that these later types of pins are more malleable...and that some earlier ones like maybe Beckers (?) are brittle.

    Here's what I've done. I disassembled the movement and put the two plates back to back. I've checked that the anchor pivots holes are back in alignment...so the eccentric is back to "factory". I thought that the pin might screw out or maybe it's a friction fit. I used a pin vise to grasp the pin at the base, but I couldn't get it to come out...I didn't want to push things. So what I did was take my smooth jaw pliers and put it along the length of the pin and squeezed as hard as I could. I did that from several angles and positions. The pin looks much better. I've also pushed the pallet that wasn't extended very much to a point very nearly the same as the one that had I pushed in. When the anchor is resting on the table, the pin is pretty straight and pointing straight up.

    So, if the plates and now, hopefully, the anchor is back to something close to factory, I will go back and begin looking at the locks again...the drops are fine. If I have to adjust the locks, I will move each pallet the same amount. I remember reading that moving one affects the other as well, so I'll have to be carefully to make very small adjustments.

    Kurt
     
  6. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    A few more changes. I wasn't happy with the straightness of the pin, so I did as suggested by holding the base of the pin with my needle nose pliers and carefully bent the pin right where it needed to be. I also adjusted the pallets so they are at the same position. On the bench, the anchor pin points exactly vertical when the anchor is resting on the bench.

    The drops are as good as I've seen and I believe the locks are not too deep. I've tried several times to get the clock to run. I'm satisfied with the "snap" of the EW. I've started the clock but it stops relatively quickly, like maybe in 10 minutes. A couple of those times, I noticed the EW was locked and wasn't turning. I don't see anything that is locking it up...no motion works at this point. I manually manipulated the anchor pin with my finger and the EW turned many many times without locking up. So, don't know what to make of that.

    I'm still not too keen on the anchor pin...it spends most of it's time moving from the straight up and towards the left...so it's not centered like it should be. But the pallets are evenly adjusted and the pin is pointing straight up when resting on the bench. What's wrong with that picture? Do I need to modify the pallets...moving one out and the other in by the same amount...to force the pin to move equally left and right of center? That doesn't make sense to me.

    Kurt
     
  7. tracerjack

    tracerjack Registered User
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    I had the same problem on one clock in which the EW would randomly lock up. Like you, when I manually moved the anchor pin, I couldn't get it to lock up. Although I couldn't see anything wrong, I wondered if there could be a slight burr on one of the pallet faces which would catch the EW only at certain times. I couldn't see anything, nor could I feel anything. On a whim, I gave the faces a very light clean, and the clock worked from then on. With as much 'reshaping' someone has done on this verge, the pallet faces are a place to look. If you find nothing wrong with the pallet faces, then I think adjusting the pallets is better than adjusting the pin. As others have pointed out to me, these clock are individuals, so maybe this one needs one pallet slightly different from the other. As tiny as the miniature movements are, it doesn't take much.
     
  8. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    I will put that on the list. Thanks...
     
  9. Harry Hopkins

    Harry Hopkins Registered User
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    Kurt, As with all torsion clocks that have adjustable pallets the pallets should extend an equal distance from the body of the anchor. On the mini's even the slightest differential (almost imperceptible to the eye) can cause a perfectly centered anchor pin to spend most of it's time on either the left side or the right side. Follow the chart in the Repair Guide and extend or retract whichever pallet the chart points out in as small of an increment as you can and then check again. If you made an improvement then do it again. It really is an exercise in patience. When I need to adjust locks and drops on a torsion clock I make sure there will be nothing to rush me as I know to get it right I will need patience. Some are a bit more stubborn than others but if the anchor pin is vertical with equal pallet lengths I have always been able to get the geometry correct using the chart in the Repair Guide.
     
  10. KurtinSA

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    Harry -

    I've been using the table in the guide more and more. I first used it to adjust the drops...when I later checked the two plates back-to-back and saw that the pivot holes for the anchor were aligned, I figured that was back at the factory position. The drops look fine. As for the locks, that's something that I can't really judge all that well. I can probably tell if they're deep or shallow but by how much it's hard to say. Plus on this clock, the EW turns CCW as viewed from the back and seeing the lock on the entrance pallet is virtually impossible.

    What I really don't get is how the pallets can be equally exposed and the pin pointing straight up when sitting on the bench, but yet in the clock, the pin spends all its time on the exit pallet side. Maybe there's a minor deviation that I'm not seeing, but seems like it would be a bit more obvious to be making what amounts to a 4 degree error in the escapement.

    Interesting, this is the second movement of this type that I've worked on. So, far I'm pretty much batting 0.000. The other one will run but only on one click...meaning it runs when fully wound and when it stops, it only needs one click back to full wind and then the clock will run again for another 2-3 weeks. Frustrating...

    Kurt
     
  11. whatgoesaround

    whatgoesaround Registered User

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    i am not talking with any authority here so you might want to just ignore me, but, if it were me, I would shorten the pallets infinitesimally, still keeping the perfect uprightness of the pin on the table. Also, is it possible that the suspension spring has become slightly bent with all the fiddling?
     
    Harry Hopkins likes this.
  12. Harry Hopkins

    Harry Hopkins Registered User
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    Whatgoesaround, Good point on the possibility of having a small kink in the suspension spring.
     
  13. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    #13 KurtinSA, Feb 20, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2019
    Suspension spring has been replaced. The original was getting abused and finally broke due to man-handling. I've found this setup is the most troublesome for a variety of reasons. The bottom block is held captive by the cap-spring retention system. The fork is the enclosed type...it has to be slipped onto the pin from the top, while pulling on the lower block spring retention. The upper saddle has the "guard" extending out over the top of the pin so access to the pin from above the movement is limited. The only way I find to get it together is to: put the pendulum in place and lock the collar; carefully feed the upper block into the saddle; use the fork to push the upper block up and into the saddle while trying to align the small screw. I can't get around having to push up with the fork which can easily bend the suspension spring. My saddle was a bit too tight, so I slightly forced the opening up to more easily accept the upper block. It is because of this arrangement, that the myriad of tests or trials, disassembly/reassembly of the movement, etc., should be kept to a minimum otherwise I'll be replacing springs all day long.

    If there's a better way, I'm all ears.

    Kurt
     
  14. MartinM

    MartinM Registered User

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    Other than the reminder to always look at the point where the EW tooth is on the impulse face when the pin is at center, I don't have much to offer.

    For the saddle tightness, I always clean-up the top block to remove any burrs created during assembly by rubbing it on a piece of fine sandpaper sitting face up on the table.
    Make sure there's a good slip fit before installing the suspension on the pendulum and then trying to install the top block into the saddle.
     
  15. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    Sometimes I find that the small screw heads on the block protrude just a small amount making the slip fit difficult. I watch for that.

    Kurt
     
  16. whatgoesaround

    whatgoesaround Registered User

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    Could you post a pic of the back? I have had one with the spring loaded retention for the bottom block and it only seemed to function in making everything harder. I notice it was not an innovation that continued.IF I remember correctly, I put the pendulum on last and it was a real pain.
     
  17. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    This is the only picture I currently have of the back with the suspension spring and pendulum together. This was before I took things apart.

    I don't see how I could put the pendulum on last, either by slipping the small retaining pin through the sprung mechanism at the bottom block, or by first inserting the top block and then somehow putting the pendulum into place. It would take multiple sets of hands.

    I've been putting the retaining pin in first and carefully put the pendulum into place and drape the suspension spring over the winding arbor. Then I raised and lock the pendulum. Finally, I move the top block/fork into place while inserting the small screw from the side.

    Kurt

    KundoNatBack.jpg
     
  18. Elderberry

    Elderberry New Member

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    That's how I do it but I found it helps me if I lay the clock on it's side to put the top block in.
     
  19. tracerjack

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    #19 tracerjack, Feb 21, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2019
    I put the pendulum on last. Originally did it the way you described, but didn’t like how easily the SS could get stressed. I now put the SS on holding the top block. It’s tricky I agree to get the closed fork over the anchor pin. I found it easiest to get the fork on coming in at an angle. Once on, then swing back in line with the saddle slot. While positioning the pendulum in the cup, I coax the bottom block to slip into the pendulum slot, then lift the pendulum up and lock it in place. Once locked, I can hold the clock on its side so I can lift the spring collar and insert the BB pin.
     
  20. KurtinSA

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    Wow! That's quite the maneuver to get the spring attached at the bottom fork. Will have to give that some thought.

    Kurt
     
  21. tracerjack

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    #21 tracerjack, Feb 21, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2019
    After reading my post, it does sound complicated, but in reality it isn't. I decided to take some photos of how I do it. Open to other methods that others are using.

    miniphoto1.jpg Because of the upper guard, I come in from the opposite side of the anchor pin.
    miniphoto3.jpg Then I use a small screwdriver to push the anchor pin to the center where there is a hole in the guard. I try to stop the pin with the edge of the fork blade. The tip of the fork will slip over fairly easy. If I fail to catch the anchor pin and it goes to the other side, I push it back and start again.
    miniphoto4.jpg I swing the top block back to the center saddle slot and put in the top block screw.
    miniphoto5.jpg This is coaxing the bottom block into the pendulum slot with a small screwdriver. Once it is in, it will drop down to the bottom of the slot. Then, I can straighten the pendulum angle, lift it up and lock it in.
    miniphoto7.jpg I'm holding the clock on its side in my left hand. I lift the collar with a screwdriver and then the hold it up with my fingers.
    miniphoto8.jpg I'm still holding the clock on its side with my left hand. Putting in the pin is fairly easy in this position. I use this method because I think it puts the least amount of strain on the suspension wire.
     
  22. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    tj -

    Thanks for that! Nice photo layout. I will definitely give that a try. It certainly will reduce the stress at the upper block.

    Now if you could take a series of pictures that can help me solve the issue(s) with my clock! I'm sure I'll have plenty of suspension off/on as time goes by. :banghead:

    Kurt
     
  23. tracerjack

    tracerjack Registered User
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    Noticed in the last two photos that I missed some liquid brass cleaner someone had previously used on the pendulum. Good thing I took those photos.
     
  24. KurtinSA

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    I finally got back to this clock. I removed the anchor and adjusted the pallets - exit out a small amount and the entrance in the same small amount. The idea was to shift the anchor pin to the right as viewed from the back. Manual manipulation of the anchor pin looked good...got the EW to be slightly down the impulse face with the pin vertical.

    I reassembled the suspension as suggested by tracerjack. Not exactly fun, but it does stress the suspension spring less.

    Clock has been running since early afternoon, first time for that! Rotation is 180 degrees with only about 10 degrees of over swing. I'm not sure that's enough for the clock to run once I add the motion works. Will monitor the clock overnight.

    Kurt
     
  25. tracerjack

    tracerjack Registered User
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    Since necessity has been lacking in the "locks and drops" department in the clocks I have gotten, (they were all still factory set) I've lazily relied on Kurt's posts to learn a bit. Coming to the conclusion that I would need that information sooner or later, I read and re-read Rabushka's "Repair and Restore your 400-Day Clock" section on locks and drops. I was surprised to read that he recommended the locks be deep. I quote from pg. 56, "In a 400-day clock, the lock must be deep. In other words, the tooth should fall well onto the locking surface of the pallet and not on the tip." I found that to be a tiny bit vague. "well onto the locking surface". Where would that be exactly? I recall, but not where or from whom, that 10 % of the lock face is good. But, perhaps that isn't enough for some clocks. So, my question is about Kurt's clock, which is why I didn't create a new thread. Would a deeper lock on his clock create more kick to the pendulum to give more rotation?
     
  26. KurtinSA

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    I'll offer my thoughts. Locks should not be that deep I believe. Once the EW drops onto the lock face, the tooth will continue to ride up the pallet due to over swing. All of that sliding adds to friction and can rob the clock of power. I think the lock needs to be just deep enough and then ensure there's good over swing. Still need the EW tooth about 1/3 down the impulse face when the anchor pin is vertical to get the best power transfer.

    Kurt
     
  27. etmb61

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    Lock should be deep enough that the anchor doesn't recoil (flutter), even with zero over swing.
     
  28. tracerjack

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    Thanks Kurt. I wish the book had been more specific. I like the 1/3 guideline. That's more definitive. The book mentioned that if too shallow, the anchor would rebound, causing a slight backward push to the fork, resulting in loss of push to the pendulum. But, it wasn't specific if that was what would happen if just shallow, or if he was talking about when the tooth hit the pallet face or near the edge. The consensus seems to be if a clock runs at 180, so be it. We are told repeatedly that power loss is usually elsewhere. And I agree that is usually the case. But still, I can't help but wonder whether after so many years if the escapement is truly performing with its factory setting as it did when first assembled. That maybe we should be paying more attention to fine tuning the escapement when a clock doesn't have robust pendulum swing.
     
  29. tracerjack

    tracerjack Registered User
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    Since I have more questions, do you think I should start a new thread?.
     
  30. Harry Hopkins

    Harry Hopkins Registered User
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    When adjusting locks and drops by moving the anchor by hand the lock must be set deeper than what you would set it on most other clocks. In a clock with a traditional pendulum each tooth should catch just enough of the locking surface to be safe. On a torsion clock if you set it that shallow when manipulating the anchor by hand the teeth will most likely land on the impulse surface when the clock is using the suspension spring to move the anchor by means of the fork. This is because of the recoil effect that happens due to what is usually called 'spring wind up'. I can't offer any specific amount of distance the teeth must land on the locking surface... I am usually happy with the adjustments when the clock is fully wound (fully wound gives the most recoil) and the teeth are landing safely on the locking surface and of course if the clock continues to run.
     
  31. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    Hopefully, final update. I decided to add the motion works and hands but the clock wouldn't run. I tried starting the clock from several different positions of the minute hand, but the clock would always stop at 0:40 or 0:45...the escapement just didn't have enough power to raise the hand. I went back to check how each arbor spun as well as the depthing...I also wanted to see if the motion works had any binding to it. The center arbor wasn't that great, so I reburnished those bushings as well as repolished the pivots. It seemed marginally better, but really hard to tell.

    Reassembled and ran the clock. Over swing was better, but total rotation remained at about 180. I added motion works and hands and the clock still ran. The amount of over swing decreases as it raises the hands...guess that's a reflection on the added power it takes to raise the hand. Will clean up the plastic "glass"...some pesky stickers and glue on the outside.

    This has been on the bench for about a month, working off/on when I was here. Hopefully I've learned something.

    Kurt
     

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