Kuempel keeps stopping

Jmurrell

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I am working on a Kuempel tubular clock with dead beat movement.

I start it running and it sounds strong but then it just eventually stops in very short time.

It starts running in beat but then starts going out of beat and stops.

I have set the beat on the clock by moving the verge and it seems very easy to move.

I am concerned that maybe the verge is too loose on its shaft but I don't know just how tight these need to be.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

John Murrell

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Dick Feldman

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John,
Have you tried to stabilize the verge/crutch on its arbor with masking tape or some other temporary means?
That would tell if the beat is changing.
What does the escapement sound like when operating?
When the beat deteriorates are there errant noises like scraping or an extra tick?
From the looks of the "stuff" stuck to the rear plate, the movement may have had a dose of WD-40 or similar product.
If that is an auto adjust verge, the clutch may have been compromised.
Dick
 
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Willie X

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That one is probably about 65 (?) years old and way way past due to be taken apart and overhauled.

Hey, that's what DF is supposed to say ...
I usually talk about the tape tricks !!!!!

:) Willie X
 

Jmurrell

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John,
Have you tried to stabilize the verge/crutch on its arbor with masking tape or some other temporary means?
That would tell if the beat is changing.
What does the escapement sound like when operating?
When the beat deteriorates are there errant noises like scraping or an extra tick?
From the looks of the "stuff" stuck to the rear plate, the movement may have had a dose of WD-40 or similar product.
If that is an auto adjust verge, the clutch may have been compromised.
Dick
I have not tried to fix the verge in place as yet.
When it is operating it sounds like a very strong beat.
When it deteriorates I cannot hear any scraping or extra ticking.
This is a deadbeat movement with and adjustable verge and I am not sure if it is auto adjust as the escape wheel has the large teeth.
 

Jmurrell

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That one is probably about 65 (?) years old and way way past due to be taken apart and overhauled.

Hey, that's what DF is supposed to say ...
I usually talk about the tape tricks !!!!!

:) Willie X
I can try the tape and see if that works.
As far as needing overhauled this clock has set for many years after the owners husband died and from what I could see the oil was complete dry from setting but the movement shows very little wear. I did oil the movement and other than the time train the chiming and striking work very well.
 

shutterbug

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If the escape wheel has the large teeth, it is not auto-adjust. You'll have to remove the verge and tighten it up. Sounds like it's moving on you as it runs.
Or it might just be trying to overcome friction from wear. Only one way to fix that.
 

Willie X

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Your clock has zero overswing.

The escape wheel teeth are probably to shallow and allowing the teeth to fall on the impulse faces at the tips of the pallets, instead of falling onto the upper dead faces.

Solution, move the pallet arbor bridge down a very small amount. When all is well with the escapement you should have about twice that much pendulum swing.

Tip, to make fine adjustments try loosening just one side of the bridge. If that side of the bridge won't move snug that screw back down (lightly) and loosen the other one. We're talking about maybe .1 to .2mm lower, for the arbor.

WARNING, it's probably best to remove the center weight and apply a little forward pressure to the minute hand while trying to move/adjust the E-wheel arbor's bridge.

Willie X
 
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Jmurrell

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Your clock has zero overseeing.

The escape wheel teeth are probably to shallow and allowing the teeth to fall on the impulse faces at the tips of the pallets, instead of falling onto the upper dead faces.

Solution, move the pallet arbor bridge down a very small amount. When all is well with the escapement you should have about twice that much pendulum swing.

Tip, to make fine adjustments try loosening just one side of the bridge. If that side of the bridge won't move snug that screw back down (lightly) and loosen the other one. We're talking about maybe .1 to .2mm lower, for the arbor.

WARNING, it's probably best to remove the center weight and apply a little forward pressure to the minute hand while trying to move/adjust the E-wheel arbor's bridge.

Willie X
I will give it a try Willie but I am going to have take it of the stand to get at the screws as the hammers are in the road and I cannot get at the screws as yet.
John
 

Jmurrell

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To start with I removed all the hammers on the clock and gave the movement a decent cleaning.

Next I had to file on of the holes oval to allow the verge to drop down in the escape wheel teeth.

After I did that I tried to hammer the verge to make it tighter on the shaft but I had no success and I am not sure what I am doing wrong.

I am posting some pics of the verge unit for suggestions.

John Murrell

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Willie X

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Well, it doesn't HAVE to be tight and I suspect there is a tension spring inside the larger collar (away from the crutch).

If this is so, it's an early 'autobeat' arrangement and needs to be left alone as long as it has some tension on the verge.
"Some tension" being anywhere from 8 to 45 grams. Measure this by simply holding the pallet part firmly, and pushing the crutch eye (or pin) steadily down on a gram scale, with the crutch arm close to horizontal.

Also, the tension has to be there in all positions of rotation. It can't be uneven/notchey.
 

Jmurrell

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Well, it doesn't HAVE to be tight and I suspect there is a tension spring inside the larger collar (away from the crutch).

If this is so, it's an early 'autobeat' arrangement and needs to be left alone as long as it has some tension on the verge.
"Some tension" being anywhere from 8 to 45 grams. Measure this by simply holding the pallet part firmly, and pushing the crutch eye (or pin) steadily down on a gram scale, with the crutch arm close to horizontal.

Also, the tension has to be there in all positions of rotation. It can't be uneven/notchey.
Willie the problem is that I am still having trouble getting is to run for more than 30 min at a time before it slowly dies down and stops. After I cleaned the movement I checked the pivots and I cannot see any major wear in the pivots in the time train.

I checked the tension on the verge and it is around 32 grams to move it.
 
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Dick Feldman

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John,
The more I see and hear about this movement, the more I am inclined to be suspect that the movement has been dosed with WD-40. That stuff does a number on auto beat verge systems. Sometimes solvent cleaning can not restore the tension to the auto beat. Sometimes it can. On occasion, I have been able to re-tension the verge assembly to get the auto set to work. That is pretty touchy. Many times, trying that will "fuse" the clutch and from then on, the beat adjustment will be manual.
It is unlikely you will find another auto beat verge.
Once again, my first rule is to make sure you have ample power to the escapement. It is my feeling that any visible wear is too much. Remember that the wheel train is like a sequence of events. Any one event missing or questionable can stop the whole operation. You cannot solve a power problem with adjustment.
You may have multiple factors involved with this movement. Like low power as well as an inoperable auto beat system--or maybe a few more.
By the way, the pallet distance is not adjustable on that unit. It is extremely hard and any attempt will likely break the verge, which will bring on additional, more serious problems. The only adjustment available is changing the center distance. (The distance between the verge and the EW arbors.) A pretty complete explanation of escapements can be found in This Old Clock, by David S. Goodman. That should be available through your local library or purchased on Amazon or eBay. It is much safer to approach escapements with some knowledge rather than to experiment. If you do not use that information from Dr. Goodman this time, you will surely use it sometime. Have you tried to disable the auto beat mechanism using masking tape on the verge/arbor?
I do not think Kuempel ever made a movement, but used modified Jauch movements. I may not be correct on that. If I remember, those tube movements were a big hassle to work on.
There is/was a man, I think in the Minneapolis/St Paul area that may have parts still available. Do a Google search. If you cannot find him, let me know and I will try.
Best Regards,
Dick Feldman
 
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Willie X

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I also would say it's a Jauch.

A quick test for wear is to take all the weights off and wiggle that big exterior disc with the 4 notches, to the upper right corner of the front plate. That's the 'chime sync' disc and always the first point to wear out on these clocks.

Can you draw a sketch to show exactly where the E-wheel teeth are landing on the pallet faces?

Clues, If your getting good loud and identical ticks right up to the stopping point, it's probably not a power issue, look to the escapement. If your ticks are soft or varying all over the place from soft to loud that's going to be a power issue, look to the train. A beat amp can help in this matter.

Willie X
 

J. A. Olson

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We are looking at a modified Jauch KG movement to use a tubular bell chime setup designed by Kuempel's staff, circa 1982 or thereabouts.
They were not a factory-tested design and can be described as 'haphazard' compared to the factory-standard tube chime Jauch also made.
The factory-standard design had a large chime hammer drum in the usual way. The movements Kuempel modified began as rod chimers.
In the later years Kuempel offered factory standard Kieninger tube chime movements without any Kuempel Kustomary modifications.

Kuempel also enjoyed making Kustomary clock parts such as pendulums and dials to accompany their clock kits.
The older models tend to have fewer standard components compared to later offerings.

Legacy Clocks of Minnesota took over production of Kuempel clocks in March 2008 and may be reached here:

 

Dick Feldman

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It just dawned on me that there may be another source of Jauch parts.
Click on this link: GRIFFEN'S CLOCK PARTS AND SUPPLIES LLC
These people bought the remains of R and M Imports a few years ago.
Randy from R and M had gathered up stock from numerous clock places that had stopped doing business. Those included S LaRose, Herschede and a few others.
There may be some old stock parts available.
Best of luck,
Dick
 

Jmurrell

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Good morning

Sorry it took some time to get back to everyone but I found when I was listening to the movement with a beat amplifier that it would have loud ticks then they would fade to soft ticks and even stop for a short time but then start again repeating this until the movement stopped.

Obviously I am having a power loss up the time train.

What delayed my response is that I had to contact the owner to see if she even wanted to do the repairs that are necessary to fix the movement.

John Murrell
 

Jmurrell

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I wanted to get back to everyone that helped me with this Kuempel Tubular Movement.

I took the movement apart after your comments about the appearance of the movement and the fact that I was seeing a loss of power at the escapement.

I cleaned the movement and inspected the pivots for wear and honestly I couldn't see any that I would consider to be in very poor condition, but I took your advice and installed bushing in the time train where I thought there was any wear and this to my surprise made this job a success.

I also lowered the verge down into the escape wheel but I didn't seem to gain a much larger swing on the pendulum but it is a little better and it is working well and running well.

I have had it running for some time now and it is doing great.

The only thing that I have not tried as yet to see if it will work is the auto beat mechanism. I am going to try this and if it doesn't work I guess I can live with putting it in beat manually.

At any rate I appreciate all the help with this clock as I thought I would never get running.

Thank You, Thank You, Thank You!

John Murrell
 
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