Kroeber Cabinet No. 53

Discussion in 'Clock Repair' started by dgmcrm, Jan 29, 2019.

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  1. dgmcrm

    dgmcrm Registered User
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    Oct 1, 2009
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    I recently acquired a wreck of a clock and identified it from Tran's book as an 8 day hour strike Kroeber Cabinet No. 53. The verge, original dial, pendulum, and the turned wood gallery/decoration on top of the case were missing. The case was intact, but the finish was highly distressed to say the least. At first I thought I'd just list the lot on eBay for parts, but then decided this might be a good learning opportunity. I do a lot of work on the 19th century cuckoo and quail clocks, but this is only my second American clock total rebuild.

    So I disassembled and cleaned the movement, polished pivots, and cleaned out the pivot holes. I had a verge I got years ago from S. LaRose in my box of parts and adapted it to the movement and have it running on my test stand. After reassembly it keeps good time and strikes well on the hour, but here is the problem I need some advice on.

    The pendulum is in beat for 1/2 the rotation of the escape wheel and out of beat the other 1/2 rotation. After four days when the spring has run down some the clock stops when the escape wheel rotates to the out of beat portion. I have adjusted the crutch to find a sweet spot but have not overcome the problem.

    The verge I modified spans 7 of the 37 teeth on the escape wheel. Some pictures of Kroeber movements look like the verge spans 8 teeth.

    Any ideas short of replacing the escape wheel, which I have never done?

    I do intend to re-make the wood decoration according to the picture in Tran's book. I acquired a suitable dial, bezel, and glass on eBay.

    Case as found.jpg Kroeber Cabinet No. 53.jpg Movement as found.jpg Movement repaired 1.jpg Movement repaired 2.jpg
     
  2. Clocks In The Grove

    Clocks In The Grove Registered User
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    Is this a dead beat or recoil escapement? If the escape wheel rotates counter clock wise it will hit the impulse face of what looks like a dead beat verge. But the slant of the teeth on the escape wheel would normal be for a recoil escapement. If the escape wheel turns clock wise it would have to operate as a recoil because the ends of the verge are tilled the wrong direction for an impulse face.. Looks to me like you have the wrong strap verge.
    Some one who has worked on this clock will know what the escapement is and what the verge should look like.
    ..Bob..
     
  3. dgmcrm

    dgmcrm Registered User
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    Yes, the escape wheel rotates clockwise. Because the old verge was missing all I had for reference was photos from similar Kroeber movements online (eBay) and one image from Tran's book that showed a similar movement. Here is a closeup of the verge. The escape wheel teeth hit the polished faces of the verge. Maybe I don't have the right verge.

    IMG_2695.jpg
     
  4. Steven Thornberry

    Steven Thornberry User Administrator
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    The movement is by Noah Pomeroy. From what you say about the rotation of the escape wheel, it would seem it incorporated his patent for a deadbeat escapement. The first part of the following post has some information about that escapement. Don't know if it will help your current problem, however.

    Some Jerome clocks for viewing
     
  5. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    The current deadbeat verge is clearly incorrect. It is surprising the clock runs at all with it. The deadbeat verge as described in the patent, that looks almost like a recoil verge, would probably work but would be hard to find. A regular recoil verge with the correct dimensions would also probably work.

    Uhralt
     
  6. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

    Feb 9, 2008
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    #6 Willie X, Jan 29, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2019
    Flip the present verge over and reorient the crutch eye 180 degrees back to the front. Or, turn the verge around 180 degrees on its saddle (probably better). You will also need to polish the other sides of the pallet arms. Willie X
     
  7. dgmcrm

    dgmcrm Registered User
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    Oct 1, 2009
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    Willie X:

    Thanks for the suggestion. I'll give it a try.

    Dale
     
  8. dgmcrm

    dgmcrm Registered User
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    Thanks for your reply. The original verge was missing. The verge you see in the photos is just something I had on hand and I put it in place just to see if the movement was worth spending more time on. With a little tweaking the movement operated OK. So based other comments about the fact that this movement originally had a deadbeat escapement I will have to make a new verge or modify the old one correctly.
     
  9. dgmcrm

    dgmcrm Registered User
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    Steven, thanks for your very interesting answer. I have examined Pomeroy's patent drawing. I will attempt to modify the verge or another one I have to function the way Pomeroy's patent describes.
     
  10. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

    Apr 4, 2006
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    I only have one Kroeber in my collection and this picture isn't the best. I believe this is the same movement and I don't know if the verge is original or not, but it is one of the best running clocks that I have. Hope this is some help.

    RC

    kroeber-1.jpg
     
  11. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    The verge looks like it could be original. At least it has the same characteristics: The right side acts more or less like a recoil verge with the impulse coming from the curved surface of the verge and the left side acts as a deadbeat with the impulse coming from the thin impulse face. This is quite similar to the escapement of a Terry Clock Company skeleton clock I have. The similarities are great: both verges look like a recoil and act as a half deadbeat. Surprisingly both patents were granted.

    Uhralt
     
  12. dgmcrm

    dgmcrm Registered User
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    A quick comparison of your movement to mine shows the main difference is the verge. Yours looks correct compared to the patent drawing geometry and mine is incorrect. Thanks for the input. The metal strap looks like it is longer than the verge I am using.

    I assume your escape wheel has 37 teeth? Can you measure the distance between the pallets or just tell me how many teeth does the verge span? Some photos of Kroeber marked movements I've seen look like 8 teeth but the images were not that good.

    The verge I am using spans 7 teeth and is 0.775" from pallet tip to pallet tip. I figure a verge that spans 8 teeth on my escape wheel would need to be around 0.868".
     
  13. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

    Feb 9, 2008
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    I've seen something similar on a Welch movement. Evidently this was used for only a short period of time and called "half dead beat" for obvious reasons. The entrance pallet is dead and does nothing, the impulse is provided by the exit pallet only.

    I would try the conventional strip dead beat (with impulse ramps on both pallet arms) first (turned right way around) and then speriment with the half dead beat, if you are so inclined.

    Willie X
     
  14. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    Sorry, but the movement is inside the clock and I do not have a record of the pallet spacing. The picture shows the number of teeth spanned. The picture does not clearly show the entrance pallet faces but if memory serves me correctly (which is some times not a sure thing) it was impulsing on both pallets. Half- deadbeats impulse at both pallets but are not completely free of recoil, The half-beat is the one only impulses on one face.

    RC
     
  15. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    Willie hit the problem on the head back in post #6. Your verge is on upside down, so the impulse can't work correctly and it is currently trying to act like a recoil although very inefficiently. As he said, you might be able to get it to work by flipping it over, and again you might not. But lets start there. It sure won't work as you have it presently.
     
  16. dgmcrm

    dgmcrm Registered User
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    Thank you (and everyone) for your input and advice. I've learned a lot since starting this thread. The movement came to me with no verge, so installed what I had on hand to see if the movement was worth keeping.
    Now I know that the movement was made by Noah Pomeroy and have access to the design of his patented low cost deadbeat verge.
    R. Croswell posted a picture of an identical movement with what looks to be Pomeroy's patent verge.

    When I flip the verge 180 degrees do you think I'll have to relocate the crutch and the "ears" or just the crutch?
     
  17. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    The easiest way would be to remove the pallet from the saddle by grinding off the rivet head, rotate it end for end and rivit it back on. If you have a rivet assortment, you probably won't need to make a rivet. It's usually a 1/16" or 3/32" brass round or flat head type. Willie X
     
  18. dgmcrm

    dgmcrm Registered User
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    I'm back 'in-country' now and got to work on this Kroeber movement. I flipped the pallet 180 degrees, left the saddle where it was, and relocated the crutch. I made a minor adjustment to the spacing between pallet tips, ground a better angle on the exit pallet, polished both with an Arkansas stone, and set the best spacing between the pallet arbor and escape wheel arbor. Now I have a good strong beat and uniform as the EW rotates. (In my initial post I mentioned that the beat was good for 180 degrees and poor for 180 degrees.)

    Next is replacing the missing gallery/decoration on the top, fitting the Kroeber dial pan/bezel I found on eBay, probably refinishing the case due to the number of dings and dents, etc.

    Thanks for everyone's help and advice. I probably wouldn't have done it without your encouragement.

    IMG_2700.jpg
     
  19. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    Good work! Glad you got it working!
     

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