Kienzle Westminster wall clocks - a pictorial guide

[J. A. Olson]

Here is a pictorial guide for Kienzle and Thomas Haller AG Westminster wall clocks from the 1890's to 1930's.

KIENZLE

The earliest wall clock I've been able to find is a Vienna style clock that chimes and strikes on 5 rods. This clock was built around either the late 1890's or early 1900's. The 'box clock' type of case followed afterwards and skyrocketed in popularity during the 1910's. These were mainly to an Edwardian style, although a few Art Nouveau cases have appeared over time. Throughout the 1920's, many more case styles including Henri II and Art Deco were introduced. After the merger with Haller AG, Kienzle built fewer styles as this type of clock gradually declined in popularity throughout the 1930's.

CHIMES

There were many different chime blocks used by Kienzle, which I have also documented. One notable thing on some blocks is the use of one lighter coloured chime rod, along with 7 steel ones. The lighter coloured rod is about a 4th interval lower pitched than the steel rod next to it, despite being about the same length. Kienzle didn't use this in the late 1920's onwards. I have included a couple block designs in the attachments.

HALLER

The Thomas Haller AG wall clocks use the same mechanisms and parts the Kienzle wall clocks used, although the earlier 1900's clocks used the older mechanism we've seen in a few mantle clocks. Although most of the clocks with 'HALLER' still had the Kienzle trademark on the mechanism, I have documented one example with the Haller AG logo on the mechanism as well. It is a dual chime clock with Westminster and Whittington chimes.

CHIME TUNES

The chime tunes were usually Westminster, although a few with Whittington have been seen. I have also seen one with a 6 note tune brought up a while back, however I cannot confirm if the clock was built like that, or purposely modified later on. It uses the same rods as an HAC Trinity chime wall clock. See the following videos.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxmVZwW64BE]kienzle[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4L66dOJrr0"]YouTube - kienzle westminster chiming wall clock[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhD8QlevJP4"]YouTube - SDV 0092[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Gi1OCCQCos"]YouTube - AT KIENZI[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyaK-hHe9HI"]YouTube - ML 20201328[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOqruZpnhog"]YouTube - AT GB kính ràp[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4L66dOJrr0]YouTube[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?vQ1U6QE3c4U]YouTube[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pftdPSJipKg]YouTube[/ame]

 

[zepernick]

CCF --

Just a few observations, as follows:

Here is a pictorial guide for Kienzle and Thomas Haller AG Westminster wall clocks from the 1890's to 1930's.

Kienzle did not merge with "Thomas Haller AG," Junghans did. Kienzle took over the firm that was known as Thomas Ernst Haller. They were different firms. TEH wasn't around in the 1890s.

The earliest wall clock I've been able to find is a Vienna style clock that chimes and strikes on 5 rods. This clock was built around either the late 1890's or early 1900's

Obergfell's DRGM 108469, a utility-model patent for rod gongs, wasn't enrolled until 23 December 1898 (see below). So any clock with them can be assumed to be no earlier than about 1899. And as far as we know, the first ones were single (also below, with the DRGM in the block).

The Thomas Haller AG wall clocks use the same mechanisms and parts the Kienzle wall clocks used....

Do you mean the Thomas Ernst Haller/Th.E. Haller/Haller A.G. clocks?

Regards
Zep

 

[J. A. Olson]

hope this helps

Do you mean the Thomas Ernst Haller/Th.E. Haller/Haller A.G. clocks?

Yes, I meant Thomas Ernst Haller. Did you not see the last attachment showing a Haller dual chime wall clock? The 'sunrise' logo can be seen on the mechanism. My friend owns that clock, so if he has any better photos of it, I will post them.

Kienzle did not merge with "Thomas Haller AG," Junghans did. Kienzle took over the firm that was known as Thomas Ernst Haller. They were different firms. TEH wasn't around in the 1890s.

I know Kienzle did not take over (or merge) TEH until around the late 1920's (1928 I think, feel free to post the exact date if you know). I had meant to say the guide covered the Kienzle clocks throughout the time period I cited, and then a bit on the later (1920's if you want to be exact) TEH wall clocks. I thought I'd put 1920's for the TEH clocks in my original post. Hope everyone understands now.

Obergfell's DRGM 108469, a utility-model patent for rod gongs, wasn't enrolled until 23 December 1898 (see below). So any clock with them can be assumed to be no earlier than about 1899. And as far as we know, the first ones were single (also below, with the DRGM in the block).

There's our date. However, I'd seen similar clocks, with the owners saying late 1890's to early 1900's. That is why I said late 1890's to early 1900's.
If you have any other information on these earlier Kienzle Westminsters, feel free to post.

Just for you, here is one clock with 'HALLER' on the face, but has the Kienzle logo on the mechanism. Do you have any idea why this is, and not TEH's logo on the mechanism?

 

[J. A. Olson]

Re: hope this helps

Also wanted to add this link to a patent by Kienzle from the 1920's.
http://depatisnet.dpma.de/DepatisNet/depatisnet?action=pdf&docid=FR000000597266A

 

[zepernick]

Information about both the Thomas Haller and Thomas Ernst Haller firms is provided in Schmid's Lexikon der Deutschen Uhrenindustrie 1850-1980 and has been referred to previously here on the Message Board.

Yet because there's still been some confusion, it might be helpful to attach some documents from when in 1928 TEH went together with Kienzle. At this point the Thomas Ernst Haller firm, founded 25 years earlier, was still called Thomas Ernst Haller.

The first clipping from the 1928 Deutsche Uhrmacher-Zeitung (DUZ) is an article on the occasion of TEH's 50th birthday. The second speaks of the planned joining of the two firms. The third clipping, from the 30 June 1928 DUZ, announces that the stockholders have approved.

The last clipping is part of an article (pages 884ff) about the Uhrenfabriken Thomas Ernst Haller in a November 1928 issue on what that month would be the 25th anniversary of the founding of the firm. Besides giving a nifty illustration, it provides a good history.

Regards
Zep

P.S. CCF -- our postings (above) e-crossed.

 

[J. A. Olson]

Thanks for posting the history of TEH. Nice picture of the former TEH factory, too.

I hope my initial guide was helpful. Wasn't trying to cause confusion on purpose.

 

[zepernick]

Re: hope this helps

Just for you, here is one clock with 'HALLER' on the face, but has the Kienzle logo on the mechanism. Do you have any idea why this is, and not TEH's logo on the mechanism?

CCF: Believe that Kienzle continued to use the "Haller" mark for some time. Think a registration to that effect was posted on the MB earlier. Will need to see where. Yes, all such work is helpful. And I'm fond of that photo of TEH. Looks like a horosumo wrestler -- a winning one at that. Regards Zep

Later -- Well, here (below) is a Kienzle registration for a "Haller" TM from 1950. It's not the one I was thinking of, but it shows that the name was used for some time. How long I don't know.

 

[J. A. Olson]

Re: hope this helps

Thanks again for the reference to the 1950's use of 'HALLER' as a Kienzle trademark. TEH does look like a winner himself. Any photos of Jakob Kienzle?

On the subject of Kienzle wall clocks, I am attaching some pictures of a later Kienzle wall clock. Notice the chime discs used and the curved hammer shape as well. It seems to have been introduced in the late 1920's, and was used for a while afterwards. I don't think later ones had the bigger pivots and bushing, as this one does.

 

[zepernick]

Re: hope this helps

Any photos of Jakob Kienzle?

Yes, e.g. below, from a notice about his 70th birthday in the 1929 DUZ. But no more Kienzling tonight!

 

[kienzle]

Hello, I know this is an old post but it's the best I've found after a lot of google research. I am the owner of a Kienzle Westminster that unfortunately I might be forced to sell. I am trying now to find out what's the approx. year the clock has been built and what could be the estimated value. I am attaching here some photos with the real clock and the mechanism.
On the back of the mechanism it reads PATENTED IN ALL COUNTRIES and the Kienzle logo. Also a serial number.
Any help will be greatly appreciated, thank you.

 

[J. A. Olson]

Wow, that's an old one you got. This would have been among the first ones made. They also did some in Vienna Regulator styled cases. It would likely be from the 1900's. Notice the giant count wheel it uses to control the chimes.

Why sell it? No room?

We cannot discuss values here.

 

[soaringjoy]

Hello kienzle, welcome here!

I agree with CCF, that your clock might be just pre WW I, perhaps
around 1910.
But, I cannot confirm this definately. The clock is not listed in my
Kienzle catalogues and similar case forms appear at least until 1930.
The term "Patented in all countries" may suggest a model designed
for export.
The movement seems to be one of higher quality types.
Kienzle had no dating system to go by.

Is there a DRGM or DRP number anywhere, maybe on the gong?
Is there a nut or a taper pin holding the hands?

To get an estimate of the prices these clocks achieve, you will have
to look at Ebay auctions, I guess.

Jurgen

 

[kienzle]

Hey, thanks for participating guys, I appreciate it.
On the mechanism there's a serial number: 37022. It has 6 rods.
Not selling because of not enough room, room is one thing I have more than enough . I'm just passing through some difficult times and I need the money.
Here's some more pictures with the inside.

 

[zepernick]

K --

We can probably narrow it down a bit from the Kienzle trademark on the movement.

The so-called Flügelrad mark --that wheel with the wings on it -- didn't have the "KIENZLE" above it in 1908.

However, it does show up in a registration from 1910 (see below, and don't worry about how close the wings are drawn). It's commonly seen afterwards in trade ads, such as the one showing the factory from 1912, which appeared in the Deutscher Uhrmacher-Kalender für 1913.

Then the logo with the stubbier wings was registered in 1921 (also below). So we might assume your clock was made sometime between 1911 and 1921.

Alas, we don't yet have enough information and records to match serial numbers to dates, etc.

Good luck!

Zepernick

 

[J. A. Olson]

So we might assume your clock was made sometime between 1911 and 1921.

I dunno. Early 1910's wouldn't be unrealistic, but I'm fairly sure this movement type was not produced after the mid or late 1910's.
Unless you have something that shows otherwise.

I'd still be content with the 1900's estimate.

 

[zepernick]

CCF --

Matters of opinion here or there , there's no indication that the trademark with the KIENZLE over the Flügelrad was available before 1910. And evidence as above that it wasn't.

Zep

 

[J. A. Olson]

Perhaps so, but I still doubt the idea of this movement (large count wheel) being made after the mid 1910's.

I seem to remember seeing at least one without "KIENZLE" over the Winged Wheel, but I'll have to look through my files to ensure this.

I understand your trademark guide doesn't show this version of the Winged Wheel before 1910, but I don't want to rule out the idea of at least the movement and chime rod block designs being before 1910.

Here we go, this is from a Vienna styled case but the movement seems to be the same type. And the chime block is about the same.

 

[zepernick]

I understand your trademark guide doesn't show this version of the Winged Wheel before 1910, but I don't want to rule out the idea of at least the movement and chime rod block designs being before 1910.

CCF--

Do understand what you're saying. But please do note that I'm not referring to my trademark guide. Or a trademark guide. Or some trademark guide.

Rather, I've been referring to actual matter that is from the period that I've collected, the bulk of it independently. And, please note, have repeatedly posted so that it can be seen.

Then too, the question wasn't when these movements were first made. Or when the gong block was first available. Rather, it was when this clock dated from.

-- So noting the trademark that is on the movement, we can take, say, the cover of their 1908 catalogue, below.

-- And then this same ad I posted earlier, from Kienzle, from 1912.

-- And in between, there is the actual record of a registration of the logo with "Kienzle" above it, registered by Kienzle, from 1910.

-- And conclude, however carefully, that something had changed.

So yes, it's possible that Kienzle made the movement earlier than around 1910 (but we do know that they weren't using those multi-rod gong sets in 1900). And then later restamped the plate with a post-1910 trademark.

Just find it rather unlikely .

Zep

 

[J. A. Olson]

CCF--

Do understand what you're saying. But please do note that I'm not referring to my trademark guide. Or a trademark guide. Or some trademark guide.

Rather, I've been referring to actual matter that is from the period that I've collected, the bulk of it independently. And, please note, have repeatedly posted so that it can be seen.

I understand what you mean now. I do not intend to cause stress over it. I am simply used to seeing such material from various guides, rather than actual material. I try to gather my own material as well (mostly photos and recordings).

Then too, the question wasn't when these movements were first made. Or when the gong block was first available. Rather, it was when this clock dated from.

-- So noting the trademark that is on the movement, we can take, say, the cover of their 1908 catalogue, below.

-- And then this same ad I posted earlier, from Kienzle, from 1912.

-- And in between, there is the actual record of a registration of the logo with "Kienzle" above it, registered by Kienzle, from 1910.

-- And conclude, however carefully, that something had changed.

I understand about the trademarks, but the reason I bring up when the type of movement was made was to get an idea of when they began to use that pattern, just for the sake of knowing when it was first made.

So yes, it's possible that Kienzle made the movement earlier than around 1910 (but we do know that they weren't using those multi-rod gong sets in 1900). And then later restamped the plate with a post-1910 trademark.

Just find it rather unlikely .

Zep

When I posted 1900, I had meant to cover the entire decade (for example... 1908). I am sorry if it didn't seem like that initially. At the same time, I just didn't want to throw out the 1900's (decade) possibility entirely. o

 

[soaringjoy]

Bingo!

Jurgen

 

[Scottie-TX]

If ya'd like to view the updates CCF added - two dead flix deleted and three new ones added to CCF's first post, page one. Enjoy!

 

[J. A. Olson]

Yes, it is annoying when Youtube users decide to remove videos. I do wish this website would have a special page for videos or recordings of numerous clocks.

 

[rlwindle]

Here are a couple of shots of my Kinzle Westminister Chiming Wall Clock. A video of it chiming is located here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YPiimDyUU4

Couldn't get it to load on the board.

 

[J. A. Olson]

That's a nice one you got, not the most common rendition of Art Deco (most had a more squared octagon dial). Probably mid to late 1920's.

Very low pitched chimes, too.

 

[oleg645]

Hi! It's my Wall Clock . Is it probably 1913?

 

[oleg645]

Serial number 39346.

 

[J. A. Olson]

Looks like one of the earlier ones, probably from the 1900's (maybe early 1910's). The countwheel is located behind the chime drum discs as opposed to the usual "locking disc" assembly the later Kienzles have.

 

[oleg645]

Thanks, chimeclockfan!

 

[soaringjoy]

I found this one in my pile.
No further infos on dating or such, yet; just wanted to show a different style.

 

[J. A. Olson]

That's a strange one, thanks for sharing. o

 

[delmortz]

Serial number 39346.

We have a grandfather clock with serial number 39366. When was your made ?

 

[Steven Thornberry]

We have a grandfather clock with serial number 39366. When was your made ?

oleg645 has not been on the Forums in over eight years and may not see your post.

 

[delmortz]

Thank you for your reply. I’m trying to gather as much info as I can. His serial number was very close to mine so would be good if he was still around to help. If not I am sure there will be another mine of knowledge somewhere to help me. Thanks

 

[Jason Bowen]

Good Afternoon Gentlemen.
I hope to pick your knowledgeable brains about what Haller wall clock I have inherited. I haven't found ANY Kienzle markings or names on the piece and no wing emblems just a Haller "gear" brand on the front. Any help delightfully accepted.

Jason

 

[J. A. Olson]

This looks like an earlier Haller AG wall clock made prior to the Kienzle merger, going by the hands and movement patterning. 1922-1928 would be a likely date range, however I don't know of any chronological serial numbering for the older Haller AG clocks.to narrow the date down further. Thomas Ernst Haller's company - Haller AG - was well established in the British trade prior to the Kienzle merger so his company's trademark was retained for regional brand familiarity.

 

[Jason Bowen]

Thanks Chime. The lack of stampings had me worried at first. We really had no idea on age.
I'm fairly sure given what I've learned here about their heavy export market, probably not terribly valuable as there clearly were likely many and my clock face has some heavy wear condition issues. My Grandparents bought it in the early 50s while stationed in Germany as an "Antique" but clearly it wasn't then lol. Curious if the face damage was done on purpose to give the appearance of age. Will make a good keepsake. It does run just hasn't been set up in my mother's new house yet. Eventually it will come to me.