Kienzle 126176

Discussion in '400-Day & Atmos' started by etmb61, Jun 19, 2017.

  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  1. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Oct 25, 2010
    2,215
    91
    48
    Retired Avionics Technician
    Mascoutah, IL
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Rescued this one from our favorite online auction site for a scrap price. The pendulum is damaged, but the rest is in good shape. Numbers match too. This one would have had a tubular suspension guard.

    Early 1913??

    Eric 308090.jpg 308091.jpg 308092.jpg 308093.jpg
     
  2. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 24, 2014
    3,138
    96
    48
    Aerospace Engineer (Ret.)
    San Antonio, TX
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Eric -

    I have a similar clock, SN 126761 documented in my long thread from last year. My notes just say 1912-1913...not sure where that came from. I have two other Kienzles with a higher serial number dated late 1914 and one with a lower number dated 1912. I'm not sure where the precise dating of Kienzles come from...there's more definitive information for say the Gustav Becker clocks.

    Kurt
     
  3. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Oct 25, 2010
    2,215
    91
    48
    Retired Avionics Technician
    Mascoutah, IL
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Kurt,

    I had seen your post. I find it interesting they use the same digits in the serial numbers. I searched John Hubby's posts for the date info. Maybe he has a listing in his data.

    Here's what the pendulum "hook" looked like. Scary! Guess I'll have to have a new one made or modify one from a spare ball pendulum. I was hoping the hook was threaded onto the top spiral, but it appears they were machined as one part. Could you post a clear close up of the hook on your clock?

    I do have a spare adjusting rod I can use.

    Eric 308104.jpg
     
  4. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
    Staff Member NAWCC Star Fellow NAWCC Life Member

    Sep 7, 2000
    12,077
    163
    63
    The Woodlands, TX
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Eric, thanks for posting. This one will clean up well although the pendulum will be a bit of a challenge. Based on the serial number your clock was made June-July 1913.

    The dates I gave Kurt in his earlier posts were taken from the same database. The last time I changed pre-WWI Kienzle dates was in 2014, so those were accurate.

    The source of the dating is my personal database that has not yet been published, and is still being tweaked mainly for the period after WWI up to their sale of the 400-Day business to Kern & Link in 1929. I now have over 400 clocks documented, but that compares to more than 900 GB 400-Day (out of 3,400 total GB clocks in my database) and more than 700 JUF not counting Harders. These are the "big three" 400-Day makers between 1900 and WWII: By my estimate Kienzle made about 90,000 of their own design clocks (1907-1929), GB made 75,000 (1902-1932), and JUF made over 230,000 (1900-1939). All the Kienzle and GB clocks have serial numbers so those databases have a good degree of accuracy. For JUF, their production between 1900 and 1907 (about 34,000 clocks) can be accurate to +/- one year using patent data and other clearly dated features. When they started serial numbers in 1907 and continuing to when they stopped at the end of 1922 the dates have very good accuracy; about 122,000 clocks were made during that period. From 1923 through 1931 JUF accuracy again returned to about +/- 1 year by using logos, patents, and known events; about 45,000 clocks were made during these years. Production from 1932 through 1939 is only a best guess unless the clock has a presentation inscription or some other identifier; about 30,000 clocks were made in these years.

    I'm attaching a photo of an earlier Kienzle pendulum with the twist rod extension for info. Not the best angle to see the full details but should help you reconstruct the hook for yours.

    308114.jpg
     
  5. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 24, 2014
    3,138
    96
    48
    Aerospace Engineer (Ret.)
    San Antonio, TX
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Eric -

    I can take additional pictures of my hook if you need them.

    Kurt
     
  6. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Oct 25, 2010
    2,215
    91
    48
    Retired Avionics Technician
    Mascoutah, IL
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Kurt,
    Close up detail of the hook would be great!

    John,
    Thanks for the additional info. I was wondering about the various brand production numbers. I've recorded fewer Kienzle clocks than any other. Probably because I just didn't recognize them early on. Do you know if this model appears in any of the Kienzle catalogs?

    Eric
     
  7. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 24, 2014
    3,138
    96
    48
    Aerospace Engineer (Ret.)
    San Antonio, TX
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    #7 KurtinSA, Jun 20, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2017
    Are these close enough? This seems to be a somewhat common shape. I have another JUF pendulum from the same time period that looks the same...I'm sure you do to.

    Kurt
    308139.jpg 308140.jpg 308141.jpg
     
  8. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Oct 25, 2010
    2,215
    91
    48
    Retired Avionics Technician
    Mascoutah, IL
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Those are fine. Thanks! Are the hook and spiral one piece? Mine has solder everywhere so I can't tell.

    Eric
     
  9. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 24, 2014
    3,138
    96
    48
    Aerospace Engineer (Ret.)
    San Antonio, TX
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I've not been able to separate the hook from the spiral...but I've only tried with my fingers. I can't tell if the hook is threaded into the spiral. Seems to me that the two pieces would be separate given their shape and how difficult it would be to machine the spiral up to one point and then switch to the hook. I'm not a machinist and certainly didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. But the definite "line" that separates the spiral from the base of the hook suggests to me a joint of some kind. Maybe others with more experience will know the correct situation.

    Kurt
     
  10. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Oct 25, 2010
    2,215
    91
    48
    Retired Avionics Technician
    Mascoutah, IL
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    After a quick survey, it doesn't really match anything I have on my shelves.
     
  11. Kamil Urbanowicz

    Kamil Urbanowicz Registered User

    Aug 17, 2010
    255
    1
    18
    The hook (before it was hook) was pressed - so it fits very tight
     
  12. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Oct 25, 2010
    2,215
    91
    48
    Retired Avionics Technician
    Mascoutah, IL
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I had to take an extreme close-up to see the separation between the hook and the spiral. On mine it's filed with solder so no chance of removal without machining it off.

    Eric 308447.jpg
     
  13. whatgoesaround

    whatgoesaround Registered User

    Jan 22, 2008
    386
    14
    18
    Male
    science teacher
    south carolina
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Eric, I have the clock 126178; only two after yours. The hook and twist are just how yours is pictured and, as you mentioned, has the tubular guard. I don't know if it is meaningful, but a difference is that mine has a crown.
     
  14. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Oct 25, 2010
    2,215
    91
    48
    Retired Avionics Technician
    Mascoutah, IL
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    #14 etmb61, Jun 25, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2017
    You should post some pictures of it! Mine is drilled and tapped on the top edge of the front plate, but the holes are just filled with dirt.
     
  15. whatgoesaround

    whatgoesaround Registered User

    Jan 22, 2008
    386
    14
    18
    Male
    science teacher
    south carolina
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    #15 whatgoesaround, Jun 26, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2017
    Eric, here are a few shots. This was one I received 4-5 years ago and all I had to do was put it in beat, so I left it in the condition it was found. 308736.jpg 308737.jpg 308738.jpg
     
  16. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 24, 2014
    3,138
    96
    48
    Aerospace Engineer (Ret.)
    San Antonio, TX
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Just checked mine...sure enough, the small holes are there. However, given the dome that came with the clock, I don't think there's enough room inside the dome for a crown to fit.

    Kurt
     
  17. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
    Staff Member NAWCC Star Fellow NAWCC Life Member

    Sep 7, 2000
    12,077
    163
    63
    The Woodlands, TX
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Does the pediment have tabs with holes that fit to the movement post assembly screws at the front? Or some other way to fix it to the movement?
     
  18. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Oct 25, 2010
    2,215
    91
    48
    Retired Avionics Technician
    Mascoutah, IL
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I would suggest the crown/pediment is a later homebuilt addition.
     
  19. whatgoesaround

    whatgoesaround Registered User

    Jan 22, 2008
    386
    14
    18
    Male
    science teacher
    south carolina
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    #19 whatgoesaround, Jun 27, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2017
    The first shows the clock in the dome it came with. The second shows the crown and how it is attached. Here is the one thing that makes me agree that it is probably aftermarket: it has a slight brushed surface, whereas the clock movement is polished smooth. If not from the factory, high kudos to the person who did it. The finials screw on flat posts, just as they do on many clocks I own. I think it will stay on my clock,since it is done so well and I am used to it this way. 308828.jpg 308829.jpg
     
  20. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 24, 2014
    3,138
    96
    48
    Aerospace Engineer (Ret.)
    San Antonio, TX
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Interesting...IMO the pediment doesn't look right for the dial. Normally, the width of the pediment is nearly the same as the diameter of the dial. In your case, not so much. Since you have indicated that the finish of the pediment doesn't match other parts of the clock, probably does point to the fact that it wasn't originally part of the clock. Plus, those small holes in the upper edge of the front plate were really where/how a pediment would have been attached...if it came with one.

    As you said, it works for you eyes!!

    Kurt
     
  21. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Oct 25, 2010
    2,215
    91
    48
    Retired Avionics Technician
    Mascoutah, IL
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    If you like the look that's all that matters.

    What set me off was that Kienzle mounted the pediment to the top edge on their movements with the drilled holes. The only exceptions I've recorded are the clocks with the calendar movements, shield dials, and of course the Huber made movements.

    Eric
     
  22. whatgoesaround

    whatgoesaround Registered User

    Jan 22, 2008
    386
    14
    18
    Male
    science teacher
    south carolina
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Well, I started off noticing that only a few replied to the thread and knew I had the clock and maybe I would add in my info, if only to corroborate what was already said; especially cool was the fact there was only one clock made between our two. It ended up that I was the one getting edified. What did I learn? That my stupidity survived for years and, I am sure, still exists in other forms. But when I got the clock, I did not like the look of the crown, but it was done so well that the thought that it was not original did not even occur to me. Even on the day I posted the first pics, I saw the two holes and just thought that, because of the size of the face, they only existed because it was a standard movement and the size of the crown was such that it required an alternative attachment. Like I said, the difference in textures kind of sealed it, that it was aftermarket. I never would have thought to look if Mr. Hubby had not asked how it was attached and Eric had not suggested it was not original. So, the more I look at it, it bothers me and I can see that the aesthetics are better without it. Still, there is something that just tells me to keep it there. I suppose this is shocking to all the purists out there. There is something that made someone go to all the trouble of fabricating the crown and it is part of the unique history of this clock. Maybe, one day I will look at it and it will just have to come off. Still, all is original and there and this addition is easily removed without harm. Thanks to Eric, John, and Kurt for the education.
     
  23. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Oct 25, 2010
    2,215
    91
    48
    Retired Avionics Technician
    Mascoutah, IL
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    It does do a good job of taking your eye away from the seemingly over tall and distracting suspension bracket.

    Eric
     
  24. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Oct 25, 2010
    2,215
    91
    48
    Retired Avionics Technician
    Mascoutah, IL
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I can say for certain the hook was threaded into the spiral. Mine broken when I attempted to remove the remains of the hook so I cut it apart to see how they did it. Now I have to make a new spiral shaft as well. Luckily Kundo pendulums have the same twist.

    Eric
     
  25. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Oct 25, 2010
    2,215
    91
    48
    Retired Avionics Technician
    Mascoutah, IL
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Here is the new spiral shaft. This was two days of work for me and my second attempt. The spiral portion is from a sacrificial Kundo pendulum. It has the same twist as the original Kienzle part.

    new_spiral_1.jpg new_spiral_2.jpg new_hook.jpg

    Now I just need to finish the hook.

    Eric
     
    Dave T likes this.
  26. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Oct 25, 2010
    2,215
    91
    48
    Retired Avionics Technician
    Mascoutah, IL
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Here is the finished pendulum repair. It only too me a year and $$$ in machine tools. Now I can work on the clock.

    new_hook_2.jpg new_hook_3.jpg new_hook_4.jpg

    Eric
     
  27. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 24, 2014
    3,138
    96
    48
    Aerospace Engineer (Ret.)
    San Antonio, TX
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Nice, Eric! I'm envious of people who can do this kind of work.

    Kurt
     
  28. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Oct 25, 2010
    2,215
    91
    48
    Retired Avionics Technician
    Mascoutah, IL
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I'm glad you appreciate it. You could probably do this too if you have the desire. I've been wanting to learn machine work since I was very young. This was my first machined part other than the fixture to make the hook.

    2nd_cut.jpg

    My scrap pile is larger than the part.

    Eric
     
    Dave T likes this.
  29. Harry Hopkins

    Harry Hopkins Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 16, 2011
    543
    37
    28
    Retired Instrument Technician
    Mason, IL
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    The scrap pile is irrelevant. Very nice results..
     
  30. MartinM

    MartinM Registered User

    Jun 24, 2011
    2,961
    79
    48
    Male
    Medical Insurance Systems Analyst
    El Dorado, CA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Swarf happens.
     

Share This Page