Kieninger - Would you ? - Should I ?

[Garfield]

I've seen a Kieninger mantle clock that I'm tempted by (largely because of the price), it looks to have had some abuse but still runs and chimes. Not sure about the staining on the plate and know very little about Kieningers though new movements still seem to be available, although I cannot find this one. It's a triple chime and spring driven, beyond that I know little.

I know it isn't particularly old in the grand scheme of clocks but I was considering adding something newer to the collection.

Question is should I bother.

 

[wow]

I would not buy it unless you plan to rebuild it or replace it. The cost either way would be more than it is worth. That is a floating balance so it is about 40+ years old. Life span is about 30 years.

 

[Garfield]

Understood. Is this the beginning of the disposable society I wonder - I have a 1760 or so longcase that runs just fine and that's a little more than 30 years old.

My poling around to date makes me believe the date of the clock is around the 1940 to 1950 range that would certainly put it outside the 30 years.

Are modern clocks that utilised mass production methods not worth the effort ?

 

[Willie X]

1975 ... I looks more like a Hermle than a Kieninger?? Willie X

 

[Alex KVASHIN]

Are modern clocks that utilised mass production methods not worth the effort ?

I strongly beleave that modern mass production clocks worth restoring.
One point yet. There is so wide choise and You can aquire something more interesting compare to some avarage. For example if it plays rare melody - then I buy, if it plays westminster - I don't buy.

 

[Garfield]

Much appreciated also - I wondered about the 76 on the plate - the clock face says Kienenger but I know you can't trust that. I have no experience at all with clocks such as Hermle / Hamilton / Kieninger / Kienzle etc - lot of mass produced stuff badged in various ways it seems with very little real clue who the actual maker was. The price range is also huge, it is hard to know if it is highly priced for rarity or to test buyer stupidity.

I'd like a musical as I've been asked to service one but since I've never worked on one I was seeking one to get to know the in's and out's before I get into a crazy rare clock - gotta start someplace.

 

[Willie X]

It's not rare and its not old and it's also not a good project for a beginner.
Willie X

 

[Willie X]

It's

 

[Garfield]

Are we ever not beginners - every clock I touch offers new challenges to overcome, different techniques in differing scenarios and I wonder how many of us approach any given challenge in the same way.

I think I understand what you are saying though - bit like some of the mass produced watch movements that really aren't designed with servicing in mind aka designed for short lifespan with unobtanium components, a similar principle to that presented by the electronic 'stuff' - get them apart just fine but getting back together is a whole new challenge for the patience muscle if there is any point doing so.

 

[Schatznut]

If you have to ask this forum for advice as to whether to buy it or not, don't. If it tugs at your heartstrings, do.

Agree with others - it looks like like a Hermle movement. Others have said (correctly) it isn't a good one for a beginner, but as Garfield also points out (correctly), are we ever not beginners? If it's cheap and not rare, if you try to rebuild it and fail, you aren't out much and in the grand scheme of things haven't done damage to a great heirloom. From what little can be gleaned from the pictures, this movement doesn't look like it has excessive wear in the usual places, but the only way to know for sure is to let down the mainsprings and start checking for play in the pivots. At the very least it needs a complete teardown, cleaning and assembly. At worst, it needs a complete teardown, bushing installation, pivot polishing, cleaning and assembly.

Also agree with Alex that even modern mass-produced clocks are worth restoring. That's how they get to be old clocks. I have quite a few clocks with similar Hermle movements, and they all run quite nicely after I've taken the time to go through them, cure their ills and carefully rebuild them. Everyone who advises you that isn't a good movement for a beginner was a beginner with these movements once. You don't learn how to rebuild a Hermle three-train movement just by reading Steven Conover's "Chime Clock Repair" (hint, hint).

 

[Garfield]

Did some more digging thanks to the tips presented for which I am grateful. This looks like a form of the Hermle 1050-020 though the numbers aren't clear and the 'new' versions seem to have far more text than is present on this one. I will be adding another book to the collection also it would seem simply for curiosity and interests sake.

 

[Joe Gargery]

I adhere to this theory: "There's always room for Jello-O... and just one more clock".

 

[Garfield]

Well I passed on the one I was looking at but I'm always hunting that next project

 

[Cheezhead]

If it has a good price and is still available buy it and use it as a learning tool. The year 1976 lies between my remaining 1975 1050-020 eight chime rod and 1979 340-020 five chime rod movements. These movements are relatively easy to work on. You can easily remove the three mainspring drums without disassembling the entire movement. Let them down first, of course. The escapement is removable and don't force it to bend anything. The chime drum follower rods are also easily removable for a Q-tip-solvent clean and relube. If you remove the chime drum then you must with trial and error index it correctly so the quarter hour chime songs and hour counts are phased correctly.

I had a third one that was treated similarly, a 5 chime 340-020 and a large face; gave it to a niece.

I did not clean but did lube the escapements with trumpet valve oil and lubed the remaining parts with a thinner grade of synthetic motor oil. The movements minus the mainsprings, escapement and chime drum follower rods were soaked and swished in a dilute mix of Murphy Oil Soap, then dried including the shaft ends with gentle compressed air. Nothing was done to clean the enclosed mainsprings. All start with no assistance other than winding and ran well in excess of 8 days. The eight chime rod movement is special so I say: go for it!

 

[Garfield]

Struggling with what is a good price to be honest, seller declined my offer outright. The movement is still available if it is indeed a 1050-020 and quite pricey new - but at least that means I shouldn't need to be fabricating parts - could even practice my bushing skills and maybe buy new plates - provokes some thought for sure. I do agree with the principle that educating myself and adding to the experience levels is never wasted.

 

[Willie X]

Don't lock in on one clock.

Complete modern clocks (post about 1970) or loose movements are readily available. The type movement you seek is fairly common but not an easy clock to repair.

I don't think you mentioned where you were shopping and how much you were offering??

Any modern clock over 25 years old will probably need extensive repair.

Your money will be better spent on pre, or just post, WW-II clocks. Before the planned obsolescence thing got started. Chiming models will always be difficult to repair, no matter the age.

Willie X

 

[Garfield]

I'm looking, I've decided that I do want a musical or chiming clock in the collection, looked at a number so far. I currently only have striking clocks. I wasn't sure about the rules on discussing prices but the seller was asking £120 with shipping on top, it is on a popular auction site and being sold as a Kieninger which it most certainly isn't, the clock has only an hour hand and a damaged case so I thought I was being generous when I offered £100.

 

[Joe Gargery]

I think your offer was VERY generous.

 

[Garfield]

The seller declined so I'm not pursuing further. Prices are very varied, seen some nice looking pieces but not looking to spend four figures, there's some pretty creative prices out there for pieces that even I know are nothing special - and I know mostly nothing.

 

[Cheezhead]

Thank you for your PM and I will reply here to cover what you wanted. If not, then PM again and I will reply.

I very much agree that your offer was very generous. I don't recall exactly what I paid but I would not have paid more than $20 each. With recent inflation in mind I might extend that to $25. The two that I have are Linden (8 chime rods), a German name of course but no "Made in Germany" wording and the other is branded "New England Clock" (5 chime rods) with Farmington, Conn. directly underneath and Western Germany at the bottom of the dial. Someone on this site called the Hermle 340-020 movement the Chevolet of clock movements to say I suppose, that they are adequate for the intended task but common.

 

[Garfield]

All very good to know, and very appreciated. I'm currently looking at a Junghans, a HAC and a W&H, I'd really like to get something that chimes the quarter, I'd like a clock that is complete, unmolested and maybe not running or running badly.

Even through this discussion I've learned things - I can now spot a Hermle even if the name Hermle is not there - every day is a school day.