Kieninger-Obergfell anniversary clock

Fenner

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Gentleman, I have been given an anniversary clock for repair and enclosed some photographs of the clock it looks good apart from the rotary pendulum set up. I have never been involved in this style before so I am uncertain of the setup and what it should look like when the linkage is in its correct position. I wondered if anybody had a photo of a similar clock. I am uncertain of how it gets its power to create the pendulum spheres to revolve and does there look like anything is broken. Any help would be grateful. I can forward more photos if necessary. Fenner.
 

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Kim Miller

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It has a broken suspension spring. I just finished one just like it. It was my first attempt at a 400 day clock. Went really well. I found the best source for working on these is the Horolovar web sight. They have instructions online on how to build and replace these torsion springs. Another very good resource is the 400 Day Repair Manual 10th addition. Lots of good information. It's available from Horolovar and Timesavors.
There's also a section in this forum that deals with these clocks. Good luck!
Kim
 

John Hubby

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Fenner, thanks for posting your inquiry and the photos of the clock. It appears that all the parts are present, however the suspension spring (the long thin flat wire) is broken and will need to be replaced. Since you say you have not worked on one of these before, it will be necessary for you to review the posts about suspension spring replacement and movement service that are in the 400-Day clock forum before starting the repair. I presume you have some experience already servicing ordinary gravity pendulum clocks so that will be of help.

I am moving this thread to the 400-Day forum so our users can assist you better.
 

MartinM

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When ordering the spring, You'll want a Horolovar spring measuring .0032' in thickness.
 

Burkhard Rasch

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it is indeed a post-WWII 60ies - 70ies example with a special device against accidently unhooking the pendulum and with a pendulum locking device,both features can make the change of the suspension spring a bit fuzzy.Either read through some posts here or get Your copy of Charles Terwilliger's 400day clock repair guide 10th edition.It's well worth the money and deals with all questions that might occur when repairing these clocks.Come back with questions if You have!
Good luck!
Burkhard
 
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shutterbug

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I'll add a caution: DON'T get the complete suspension units. They have the wrong springs (not Horololvar) and will not keep time without thinning them.
 

Fenner

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Shutterbug. Do you mean don't go to Horololvar or they are ok. I am assuming you mean Horololvar springs are ok. Also i would like to thank you all who responded to my question and looking forward to getting the clock going. Would anybody know if the spring is available in the UK. Fenner
 

shutterbug

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If you get them direct from Horolovar, they are correct. I would not trust any of the normal suppliers. If you have the blocks and fork, just get the actual springs and make the unit yourself.
 

Fenner

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Shutterbug. I am not with you when you say "make the unit yourself" mine has a two clamps at the top one of which hooks over a upright peg inside the main frame and then goes on to clamp in the top one which i assume you take off to clamp the spring in but how do you get the bottom of the spring into the clamp at the bottom I cannot see how you can remove this. Kim Miller mentions there is instruction on how to in the forum but I cannot seem to find it.
 

AndyDWA

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The square "clamps" are called blocks. The other is called the fork.

The bottom block on these Kundo clocks is "trapped" in the top of the pendulum by a spring and pin arrangement.

To remove the block from its trap, you raise the collar against the spring then remove the pin. The block will then come out of the top of the pendulum hook,

However, it's not always as easy as it sounds as some of the pins are very tightly fitted. But it is doable with a bit of patience and sometimes a bit of creative thinking about how to keep the spring compressed while you get the pin out. Putting it back in after you've attached the block to the new suspension wire can be challenging - but again, it can be done with patience.

Since you have both blocks and fork, the cheapest option is to buy a pack of springs (3 in a pack) and rebuild the suspension unit. You can use the broken wire as a guide to how long the new wire will need to be for the pendulum to hang in the correct position.

There's a short conversation about the pin lock arrangement here and here.
 

Tinker Dwight

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The original one was most likely working at one time.
There is a good book describing the length of the blocks and
the fork position.
The length is the same for this size clock but the fork position
can be different from the book based on tuning.
Use your broken spring to make a tracing. This way you can
make it match the one you have.
Tinker Dwight
 

Fenner

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Martin. I have never worked on these before and they say that the spring has to be correct so excuse me on what I am about to say. How have you come up with the size of spring I need without having seen or measured the clock or spring thickness as I believe there are abundant sizes of tension springs for these clocks. I am not doubting you but would just like to know. Fenner.
 

Tinker Dwight

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I looks to be a full sized Kundo. The spring size for these was
always the same, unless someone swapped the bob from another
clock.
If you wanted to check the clock out while waiting for the new spring,
you can usually just clamp the spring you have in the top block.
It would need moving the fork down a little.
As long as the bob clears the shipping bracket at the bottom the clock
should run.
Tinker Dwight
 

KurtinSA

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Martin. I have never worked on these before and they say that the spring has to be correct so excuse me on what I am about to say. How have you come up with the size of spring I need without having seen or measured the clock or spring thickness as I believe there are abundant sizes of tension springs for these clocks. I am not doubting you but would just like to know. Fenner.
Burkhard mentioned the repair guide by Terwilliger. This book has all of the information about spring sizes and requirements for the clock. Using the pattern of the back plate, one matches the plate to one in the book which, in turn, provides the specifics needed to rebuild the suspension spring.

Kurt
 

Kim Miller

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Fenner,

I just finished a clock just like yours. The book calls for a .0032" spring. I bought mine from Chris at Horolovar. Check Their Web site, they have articles you can print that tell you step by step how to build a new spring. It looks like you already have the top and bottom blocks and the fork. Buy the book as mentioned above and you will have diagrams of all the springs so you can use the diagram as a template to locate the top and bottom blocks and the fork. Or you can order one already made up from Horolovar. Send a picture of the back of your clock to Chris and he'll get you what you need. You might want to read up on how to "thin" the spring. I had to thin mine some in order to get it regulated properly. There are article on this forum that explain thinning.

Kim
 

MartinM

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Martin. I have never worked on these before and they say that the spring has to be correct so excuse me on what I am about to say. How have you come up with the size of spring I need without having seen or measured the clock or spring thickness as I believe there are abundant sizes of tension springs for these clocks. I am not doubting you but would just like to know. Fenner.
KundO's engineers always kept the moment of inertia for their pendulums on the full sized clocks the same regardless of pendulum design changes through the years There a few, rare exceptions. And the same can pretty much be said for their Mini and Midget clocks.

So, regardless of year, virtually all KundO full size pendulums rotate at a rate of 4 full cycles per minute when hanging from a .0032" Horolovar spring.
For the Minis, it's a .0023" spring.

They accomplished this in most cases by changing the weights they included in the pendulum spheres when they went with a new design. Some are a pair of cast iron hemispheres. Some are lead balls. Some are lead cylinders and some are steel balls.
So... If someone's put the wrong type of weights in a given pendulum, all bets are off.
 

Fenner

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301815.jpg I have stripped the clock down as there was a problem with the ratchet on the main barrel which I have rectified but assembling the clock I am left with a very small washer (see photo) measuring approx 5mm dia it must go over one of the pivots and I thought it would be the hand shaft please can anybody help. Fenner
 

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MartinM

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Yes. Remove the hands, face, intermediate wheel clip and wheel and the hour wheel, cannon pinion and tension washer.
Assemble by installing, in order.
The tension washer, convex side, first (It should stop at the step on the center shaft before getting to the front plate)
The washer in question
The cannon pinion, intermediate wheel and hour wheel
The intermediate wheel clip
The dial
The hands, domed washer and taper pin.
 

Fenner

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Kim. I notice you say "just like yours" I bought the book "The Hololovar 400 day clock repair guide by Terwilliger." but there does not seem to be the same backplate as in my clock. I have enclosed a couple of photos of my back plate and wondered if you can see if it is the same as yours. Thanks.
302009.jpg 302010.jpg
 

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KurtinSA

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What about plate 1381?

Kurt
 

Fenner

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Kurtin. Thank you for your response, there is no 1381 plate illustrated in the book I have so there wont be a diagram for the suspension spring setting diagram or information on spring measurement.
 

KurtinSA

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What book do you have? The 10th edition of the 400-Day Clock Repair Guide is a must. Even then you'll have to keep up with comments here on the forum. Lots of errors have been identified...marking up your copy is the way to keep up to date.

Kurt
 

Fenner

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I have "The Horolovar 400-Day clock Repair Guide" By Charles Terwilliger. I don't fancy buying another 400 day book as they tend to be to expensive and I am only an hobbyist and this is my first genuine 400 day clock I have seen never mind worked on and bearing in mind it is only the suspension pendulum and its settings that are different But thank you for your comments and help Kurtin and by the way the NAWCC forum,I think is better than any book and so helpful. Fenner.
 

Fenner

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Well I have got the clock working and been running for two days without having to trim the suspension spring which I bought from "Cousins" Marked No 3 on the packet and sized "002-.051mm going off what MartinM said.(after I guessed the length from the old spring). It has lost about 3min in that time, do you think I can adjust the wheel on the pendulum or will I have to trim the spring.
 

MartinM

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Well I have got the clock working and been running for two days without having to trim the suspension spring which I bought from "Cousins" Marked No 3 on the packet and sized "002-.051mm going off what MartinM said.(after I guessed the length from the old spring). It has lost about 3min in that time, do you think I can adjust the wheel on the pendulum or will I have to trim the spring.
Actually, I said:
When ordering the spring, You'll want a Horolovar spring measuring .0032' in thickness.
But, if you're only off three minutes in 2 days, that should be easily corrected using the adjuster on the pendulum.
 

Fenner

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Martin. Yes you did but you said for the full size kundo and for the mini an .023 and I don't think mine is a full size Kundo, well that is what I thought reading measurements from others so I assumed it was a mini. I will try adjusting the wheel. Thanks greatly appreciated.
 

MartinM

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Apologies, Fenner.
Looking at the pics, again, you are correct. It is a Mini and should take a .0023" Horolovar spring.
 

Fenner

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Apologies accepted Martin. winning with the clock adjustment. I did notice when moving the hands sometimes the verge (if that's the correct title) flutters but I watched a video and this happens apparently.
 

KurtinSA

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I've heard that that sort of fluttering is no big deal, but it still bothers me. So, when I have to change the minute hand position, I either do it quickly when the pendulum comes to a stop on it's rotation (if I only need to move a few minutes) or carefully catch the pendulum with a finger at the end of the rotation (in order to move many minutes). This locks the escape wheel and prevents the fluttering.

Kurt
 

MartinM

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Quite normal when the pendulum is it's midpoint of rotation and the movement of the hands applies added power to the escapement and overdrives the suspension spring.
 

shutterbug

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If I understand what Tinker said, it is normal IF the hand is being moved manually. It is not normal if it is running unassisted. Raising the fork a little will cure that.
 

Fenner

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Thank you all, this is my first attempt of a 400 day clock as I have said before and learnt a lot from the members of NAWCC, I found it easier than I first read about renewing the suspension spring even purchasing the correct one unless I struck it lucky. but there is one thing I would like to know. "what would arise lowering or highering the fork. Thanks all once again. Fenner
 

Tinker Dwight

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Raising or lowering the fork is the way one compensates
for slight differences in the strength of the drive. No matter
what, there are always differences. As the fork is lowered, the
lever arm is shortened and you expose more spring above the
fork to that force. This means a larger part of the impulse will
be lost to the drop. If too low, all of the energy is lost in the form
of flutter, as the stronger push of the lever slides the pallets all
the way across the impulse face before the pendulum has a chance
to move.
As you raise the fork, there is less and less leverage from the
lever and the spring above the fork gets shorter. The spring
will reach a point that the lever arm doesn't have enough force
to push the lever across the impulse.
These two effects are also seen on the amount of over swing seen
at the pendulum. Lowering the fork increases the amount of over
swing but more energy is lost in the drop, reducing the overall
energy to the pendulum.
Raising the fork allows more of the impulse energy to get to the pendulum
because it is pushing for almost the entire way across the impulse face.
This gives the pendulum more swing but reduces the reliability of the
escapement escaping.
Most like to adjust such that it is a compromise between being on the edge
of flutter to the edge on not escaping. Usually a little closer to the flutter end.
Tinker Dwight
 

Fenner

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Thank you Tinker, interesting. I have noticed the pendulum balls on my clock only rotate through 180deg with no over swing yet it is keeping good time up until now (two days) should I try to get more swing or not.
 

MartinM

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If you don't have much overswing, any little variation in the rotation can cause the clock to stop. And it will likely not run for as long on a full wind of the mainspring.
In my house, the floors are so flexible, just walking by the entertainment center causes a visible sway in the rotational plane of the pendulums of the clocks on top of it.
 

KurtinSA

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As the fork is lowered, the
lever arm is shortened and you expose more spring above the
fork to that force.
I'm having trouble understanding this. What lever arm are you describing?

Kurt
 

Tinker Dwight

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I'm having trouble understanding this. What lever arm are you describing?

Kurt
Sorry, the lever arm at the top of the anchor, that the fork goes
along.

I should note that setting it closest to the point that is
starts to flutter will allow the longest run time per wind.
As the spring winds down, there is less and less over
swing until it no longer has enough power to escape.
As Martin says, you want to have over swing. The
more the better at full wind. It still has to have a little
safety from flutter or it may mysteriously gain time.
This is part of the cleverness of the design. It kind of
compensates for the wind and makes it able to run so long.
The minitures and minis don't have as much rotation
as a full size. This is normal.
Tinker Dwight
 

KurtinSA

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Sorry, the lever arm at the top of the anchor, that the fork goes along.
My apologies, I'm trying to understand what is being leveraged. Is the arm being described, the distance between the base of the anchor pin and where the pin intersects with the fork?

Kurt
 

Fenner

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Gentlemen. you have lost me, please forgive me, the 400 day is a new thing to me and everything on the train side is normal it is the pendulum and setting of it that i am new to. my mini Kundo had an 180 deg pendulum motion, but since my last post. I have noticed it is getting less what would be the reason and what should I do about it.
 

Tinker Dwight

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My apologies, I'm trying to understand what is being leveraged. Is the arm being described, the distance between the base of the anchor pin and where the pin intersects with the fork?

Kurt
Yes, as the fork is brought down, the lever applies
more force, at the same time the spring between the
top mount and the fork gets longer and easier to push.
Continued lowering eventually gets to the point that the
escapement tooth's force pushes right off the end of the
impulse face before a significant amount of energy has
a chance to be imparted to the long spring going to the bob.
Almost all the energy is lost to the drop.
Stronger push from the lever and weaker holding force
from the spring, flutter is the result.
The most energy is imparted to the bob when it has almost
no over swing. The problem here is that it has no safety factor
as the spring winds down.
Notice, more over swing, less total rotation.
Less over swing, more total rotation.
Reliable operation for the entire wind dictates setting it closer
to the flutter at full wind, at the sacrifice of total rotation
of the bob.
This is why we say that total rotation is not a good indication
of how well the clock will run.
Tinker Dwight
 

Tinker Dwight

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Gentlemen. you have lost me, please forgive me, the 400 day is a new thing to me and everything on the train side is normal it is the pendulum and setting of it that i am new to. my mini Kundo had an 180 deg pendulum motion, but since my last post. I have noticed it is getting less what would be the reason and what should I do about it.
The clock requires over swing for reliable operation.
mini clocks do not typically have a lot of rotation.
Lowering the fork increases over swing at the cost of
total rotation.
If lowered far enough it should flutter.
Not being able to get it to flutter is likely and indication
of a power problem.
Tinker Dwight
 

KurtinSA

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Tinker -

You're indicating that the reason for the flutter when the fork is lowered is due to the increase in force by the lever as the fork is lowered. Isn't it in fact that any forces being applied are not by the lever by rather the fork into the lever? The fork is moving back and forth due to the movement of the pendulum. As it moves, it pushes on the lever/pin to lock/unlock the pallets. It would seem to me that the force imparted by the fork is more or less then same, but the arm goes down...the force over that smaller distance in terms of a moment are reduced. When the fork is lowest, the amount of movement of the anchor pin is reduced, thus the amount of lock/unlock that is produced is minimized...when that happens, the power from the main spring through the train becomes enough to push through the lock and flutter the escape wheel.

I probably have that all wrong...but am trying to understand this from an engineering standpoint. Maybe we're saying the same thing in different terms. :confused:

Kurt
 

Tinker Dwight

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Who is pushing one who?
Actually from a physics point of view, the fork is pushing on the
while the escapement tooth is causing an opposite and equal
pushing back from the lever ( forces are always equal. ).
As the pendulum swings, it pulls the anchor such that the
pallet slips off the lock surface onto the impulse surface.
Not counting the force of the pallet yet on the impulse, the wind up
of the spring causes the pallet to move some forward onto the
impulse face ( lost impulse ). This is why we want to have the
least friction on the lock faces.
Now as a result of that jump, the spring is neutral with
even amounts of wind tension above and below the fork.
If I push on the fork with the lever, which part of the spring
is going to push back the hardest? is it the short length
of spring above the fork or the longer length below the fork?
I think you'll have to admit, the part above the fork is the
part of almost all of the force resisting the escapements tooth
across the pallet.
Some small amount it there from the fork pushing against the
spring below the fork or there would be no impulse to the pendulum
bob.
It would take almost no force at all to wind up the spring below the
fork and the pendulum is even moving in the direction that
would reduce the force.
Most all but a tiny amount of the force against the lever and the fork
is from the spring above the fork at the instant the pallet moves to
the impulse.
If the lever is pushing hard enough, it will overcome both the spring
above the fork and the longer spring below. The spring below is only
wound up for a short time. Remember energy is force for some time.
Most of the force resisting the fork is from the spring above the
fork not the long piece to the bob.
This is why I don't mention the bob or that part of the spring. When
things are balanced, it is the part that slows the impulse travel of the
pallet across the impulse face but at the start, the travel is the
original jump and the restraining force of the spring above the fork.
It isn't until the pallet has made a significant distance across the pallet
that the forward motion of the bob allows the pallet to move.
Now, when lowering the fork, the escapement tooth can push the upper
part of the spring enough to completely skip over the end of the pallet
off the impulse face with only a short blip of energy transferred to
the ling spring, to the bob. Most is wasted in the snap sound of the
flutter.
What you want for maximum energy transfer is to push across as
long as possible across the impulse face so that the most amount
of energy has chance to get down the length to the bob.
This is why the rotation is greatest when there is almost no
over swing. The bob is getting the most energy.
Flutter is almost independent of the bob or the long spring.
The bob hasn't even moved far enough to allow the escapement
tooth to move across the impulse face.
The spring above the fork dominates during flutter.
When you raise the fork, the bob has time to dominate
the motion across the impulse face.
That is why I don't talk about the bob as much for flutter.
it just isn't involved that much. It doesn't have enough
time to effect the lever that much with its weak spring,
cause by the long length.
I hope this is starting to make sense.
Your "push through the lock and flutter the escape wheel"
doesn't quite make sense. It is pushing through the impulse,
from lock to lock, that causes the flutter.
The main restraining force against that is the spring above the
fork.
Tinker Dwight
 

John Hubby

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If I push on the fork with the lever, which part of the spring
is going to push back the hardest? is it the short length
of spring above the fork or the longer length below the fork?
I think you'll have to admit, the part above the fork is the
part of almost all of the force resisting the escapements tooth
across the pallet.
Some small amount it there from the fork pushing against the
spring below the fork or there would be no impulse to the pendulum
bob.
It would take almost no force at all to wind up the spring below the
fork and the pendulum is even moving in the direction that
would reduce the force.
Most all but a tiny amount of the force against the lever and the fork
is from the spring above the fork at the instant the pallet moves to
the impulse.
Tinker's comments here are spot on, that in fact the most important and controlling part of the suspension spring is the short section between the fork and the upper block. And, the shorter it is for a given suspension spring strength the more force it takes for the fork to unlock a tooth.

I don't want to change the topic, but this is precisely why I always "insist" that proper thinning of a suspension spring must include this short section. If you don't thin it, the pendulum will have to rotate more than necessary to twist that section and thus you will have less latitude for fork adjustment to control overswing and flutter. Yes, it's a bother to have to remove both the fork and upper block to do your thinning, but the results are worth the effort.
 

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