Kieninger movement - secondhand observation

Discussion in 'Clock Repair' started by NEW65, Oct 10, 2019.

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  1. NEW65

    NEW65 Registered User

    Nov 17, 2010
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    Hi Chaps,
    Today I serviced a Kieninger weight driven on cables movement.
    I did a good job and re assembled.
    I set the clock going and all good until I saw the secondhand feature jumping!
    The problem with this movement was that there was no 'whisker' pushing against the secondhand arbor and no provision to fit a 'whisker' as the two small retaining screws that hold the housing are countersunk and flush to the front plate! I did find that unusual.
    Anyway, I did improvise and fitted my own 'whisker' which was not hard to do. Since fitting this the problem has been rectified and the seconds hand is now stable as it rotates.
    I have added this post mainly to ask why this problem has arisen in the first place bearing in mind that this mechanism was made without the 'whisker' pushing against the secondhand arbor.
    I hope that I have described things okay.
    Cheers. If you want a picture please ask...
     
  2. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    If this is a deadbeat, a jumping that is not marking normal seconds may indicate a little recoil in the escapement.
    Recoil escapements are going to act oddly with a seconds hand.
     
  3. NEW65

    NEW65 Registered User

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    Thanks Shutt for your reply, I do appreciate it. Since I fitted the whisker the seconds hand is now stable and no more flicking of the hand is visible. Tbh I wasn’t going to bother as the flicker only happened now and then but I found annoying hence why I took action. It’s now fine. I used a return spring off an Hermle 0451 chime lift (the wish bone shaped lift lever). This was perfect to do the job.
    So is this always the case with a dead beat escapement ie affecting seconds hand feature?
    Thanks again :)
     
  4. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    If the seconds hand is attached immediately to the escape wheel arbor, there shouldn't be a problem or the need for a whisker. If there are intermediate wheels, any problem with power transmission between these wheels could cause the problem. Make sure that they all are totally free to move. Sticky pivot holes, a bent pivot or bent teeth would cause that problem.

    Uhralt
     
  5. MARK A. BUTTERWORTH

    MARK A. BUTTERWORTH Registered User
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    Hermle used the brass wire trick for the seconds hand on the 1161 units for a period. In the first place, it increases friction. In the second, ultimately a groove gets worn. Technically it causes trouble eventually.
     
  6. NEW65

    NEW65 Registered User

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    Thanks Uhralt and Mark. The seconds hand is not directly fitted to the escape wheel, it is via intermediate gears. The tick - tock is very strong and audible in this clock and has a wide pendulum swing. I don't think there are any power issues. The seconds hand only 'twitched' in the 2 'o' clock position but fitting the whisker cleared this up. I suppose I could have left it alone but I like to ensure that everything is working as it should before any clock leaves my shop. Yes, I suppose eventually a groove would be worn into the arbor and some friction will result although probably extremely small. In hindsight I wish I had have left it now but what I did has corrected the problem. I will add a picture in a few hours. Thanks as always, I do appreciate all the help I get.
     
  7. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

    Aug 17, 2014
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    I ran into something like this on an accursed Hermle '60th Anniversary' movement. Miserable thing anyway, but finally stable. I think I'd have added a whisker of some sort if I'd seen this post previously. It's very helpful, and thank you.

    Mr Butterworth's comment is interesting. I wonder how long it would take a groove in the second-hand shaft to cause trouble. Does the hand shaft eventually just break off, or what? It's a steel spring riding on a steel shaft, which is never a great situation, so I suppose a wide brass spring would have been better.

    M Kinsler
     
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  8. NEW65

    NEW65 Registered User

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    Cheers Mark for your post :) I reckon I will be long dead before the spring completely 'saws' through the secondhand arbor! Yes there's no doubt about it, an impression will eventually appear but I cannot see this causing anything problematic for donkeys years :) Maybe its a job that could be rectified when the movement needs a major overall in 20 yrs?
     
  9. NEW65

    NEW65 Registered User

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    I will grease it when I service the movement in 4 years lol that may reduce the friction :)
     
  10. MARK A. BUTTERWORTH

    MARK A. BUTTERWORTH Registered User
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    It will never break off the seconds bit. If the tension is too light the spring is worthless and If it too tight, then the friction can be significant. Hermle found it to be enough trouble that they eliminated it. One issue that can cause the flopping of the seconds hand is if the pallets are set too shallow. That is the first thing I would examine.
     

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