Kieninger M007 Strike Cable Wheel Power Loss

MuensterMann

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Mar 23, 2008
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I have a Kieninger MS007 movement. All is fine except that the strike is not striking. I have a complete loss of power at the cable wheel. Yes, with a weight on the wheel, I am still able to rock the wheel back and forth. I checked the stopworks on the front to see if they were engaging, but they were not. If I crank the weight a little higher, then there is power - but short lived. The cable extends from the wheel to the weight and back to the movement without any hindrances. What should I be looking for in order to resolve this issue?
 
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MARK A. BUTTERWORTH

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It sounds like something is going on with the winding drum. Remove the weight and check for end shake and rotational freedom with respect to the second wheel. Check to see there is some freedom with the cable guard.
 

shutterbug

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And don't overlook the pulley. They can go bad and hose things up too, and be sure the cable is wound smoothly at the drum. No overlapping. Some pics would help.
 

MuensterMann

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After closer examination, the issue is the stop works. However, it is not stopping due to the designed intention of the stop works. It is binding. The wheel bushing does not show significant wear. Hmmmmmm.
 

MuensterMann

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I checked the cable and it is dropping from the wheel without any rubbing on anything.

If I remove the weight and jiggle the wheel, it does have good shake and no wear of the bushings. After jiggling and it is loose, it will run again for several strikes (sometimes as many as 20 or so) and then stop again. What the hec:???:?
 

shutterbug

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You might be assuming that it's the cable wheel. Look higher in the train. Maybe a slightly bent pivot on the fly, or a bushing too tight or not quite straight.
 

MuensterMann

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The upper wheels have no force on them at all. The main wheel is not passing on any energy to the upper wheels.
 

MuensterMann

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Also, the wheel itself with the weight attached does not have force on it. I can move it back and forth about a degree - like when no weight is attached. The others (time and chime) with weight you cannot budge them.

How do I remove the stopworks on this movement? Removal on Hermle are easy with the screw on the front plate.
 

shutterbug

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Can we see a couple of pic's?
 

wow

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Also, the wheel itself with the weight attached does not have force on it. I can move it back and forth about a degree - like when no weight is attached. The others (time and chime) with weight you cannot budge them.

How do I remove the stopworks on this movement? Removal on Hermle are easy with the screw on the front plate.
The stop works have to be able to be removed. Only one of the stop gears is necessary to be removed. They are held on by an e-clip, a set screw, or a bracket which is held on by a screw.
 

MuensterMann

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Okay, the stop-works on this movement are the two gears - one centered on the strike wheel arbor and one adjacent. The adjacent gear may be screwed into the front of the front plate, although there is no slot for a screwdriver. I was able to grab it with pliers and turn it, but was not able to get it off. The gear on the arbor is held on by a clip that slides down the arbor - which is not easy to remove except by brute force methods.

Anyway, I was able to disable the stop-works by pulling the arbor clip out enough to slide out the arbor gear so that it doesn't interface with the adjacent gear. The strike now works as it should, however with stop-works function. I guess there are two main courses of action: figure out the stop-works problem and fix it (any solutions out there?) or live without the stop-works on the strike. The latter is not a big deal for the drop as the time stop-works will stop and thus so will the chime and thus so will the strike. The rise will just have to be manually stop where the time and chime have stopped - assuming you remember to do time and chime first.
 

wow

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Glad you got it, Muenster. If you will post a photo of the front of the movement showing the stops, we may be able to help you set them.
 

MuensterMann

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I wound up the time and chime weights until the stopworks stopped them. I lifted the strike weight to the same height and matched the stopworks exactly the same. After a few hours, the stopworks stopped the strike. Bottom line: the stopworks are not working! Something is out of place.
 

Jaap

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The stopworks does work. You say it stopped the strike. Happy neighbours.
 

shutterbug

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I would remove the stop works and see if it does fine without them. Once we are sure about whether or not they are stopping the clock, we can offer better opinions.
 

MuensterMann

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I was able to disable the stop-works by pulling the arbor clip out enough to slide out the arbor stop-works gear so that it doesn't interface with the adjacent stop-works gear. The strike now works as it should, however without the stop-works function. I guess there are two main courses of action: figure out the stop-works problem and fix it (any solutions out there?) or live without the stop-works on the strike. The latter is not a big deal for the drop as the time stop-works will stop and thus so will the chime and thus so will the strike. The rise will just have to be manually stopped where the time and chime have stopped - assuming you remember to do time and chime first.
 

wow

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Muenster, there are several kinds of stops. If you will post a photo of the front of your movement, we can help you set the stops.
 

MuensterMann

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front 3.jpg stuck 2.jpg stuck.jpg Here we have three photographs. The one showing all three winding arbors has all three weights pulled to the top each engaging the upper stop works limit. The other two are closeups of the strike stop-works in one of the positions where it gets stuck or stops when it is not supposed to.
 

wow

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Good photos. They are all three set right at the top. The stops in the second two photos are definitely not in a stop position. Does the one on the left spin freely with the arbor stop removed? Maybe there is a spot where it binds? That’s the only reason it would stop the arbor. Maybe the cable Is overlapped and binding at that point? :???:?
 

MuensterMann

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Does the one on the left spin freely with the arbor stop removed? Yes.

I don't think the cable is the problem. If I take the weight off in the current position, I am able to free the bind, and the strike works for several hours and then binds again. Without stop-works, no binding.
 

wow

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Does the one on the left spin freely with the arbor stop removed? Yes.

I don't think the cable is the problem. If I take the weight off in the current position, I am able to free the bind, and the strike works for several hours and then binds again. Without stop-works, no binding.
Yes, the one on the left that is riveted on, should spin freely. It’s only job is to stop the winding arbor.
 

shutterbug

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It looks like it's binding due to a meshing issue. Try switching a couple around and see if the problem follows. It might be a slightly wrong replacement.
 

kinsler33

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At worst you'll have to drill out or file off those rivets and replace them with whatever threaded fastener will work. I've never run into a stopwork problem except when I forget how to put them back together. As for those spring washers that fit over the winding arbors, you can leave those off and use some blue Loctite to hold the gear on. But I think Timesavers sells replacement washers, too.

Mark Kinsler
 

MuensterMann

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Mar 23, 2008
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The main stopworks gear is shown here. That taller finger is bent. The other gears on the time and chime do not look like this one! I tried to bend it back to straight, but no way. I am not sure how it could have become bent from normal operating conditions. I am trying to file it to something that works. stopworks main wheel.jpg
 
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