Kieninger K overhaul.

disciple_dan

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I working on a Kieninger K. 06 K is the only thing stamped on the plate other than the Kieninger mark. I'm trying to find out the year from the owner now and I'll post it.
The manual recommends that you replace the cables on a Hermle after 10 years. Is that just a precautionary thing or is it a problem? Also, I'm thinking of going ahead and replacing the drum bushings on the front and back, all 3. The back ones show just a little wear so why not do them all? I think it only adds 125.00 to the overall cost. What do you guys do?
I'm cleaning the drums now. Complete disassembly. I'm putting the push-on clips back on with a tube. I pushed one down as far as possible and I still have a little play between the gear wheel and arbor on the winding side. Can you put them on too tight? Or too loose?
Also, do you guys use grease or oil on the click where it interacts with the catch gear? I don't want to cause a dust magnet.
More to come. Thanks, Danny
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Willie X

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If those winding arbor bushings are not worn to badly you can simply turn them over.

Just push those clips on using a 1/4" nut driver. Push them down till they stop, that's it.

Sounds like you might be paying to much for your parts?

Willie X
 

disciple_dan

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f those winding arbor bushings are not worn to badly you can simply turn them over.

Just push those clips on using a 1/4" nut driver. Push them down till they stop, that's it.

Sounds like you might be paying to much for your parts?

Willie X
Good idea on the bushings.
The clips seem to be on right and holding well. I'm just checking.
That price to cover the new parts included my efforts also. I mark it up a little. No?
Thanks, Danny
 

John P

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We re-bush those pricey mainwheel bushings. Most of them are worn egg shaped but can easily be brought back to center and a bushing fitted using a Sherline Mill with a rotary table.
We love good tools.

johnp
 

disciple_dan

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We re-bush those pricey mainwheel bushings. Most of them are worn egg shaped but can easily be brought back to center and a bushing fitted using a Sherline Mill with a rotary table.
We love good tools.
I wish I had that equipment and skill. Unfortunately, it's out of my reach at this stage in life. I think the new ones were all 6 for 50.00.
Thanks, Danny
 

bkerr

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I am with you Danny, if the bushings have wear, replace them for that kind of money. My thinking is, if there is a good replacement made, I can spend my time on something else. I guess it would depend on how much you think your time is worth?
$8.33 ea?
 

Willie X

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I thought we were talking about "all 3" @ $125. That's about $42 each ...
Willie X
 

disciple_dan

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Yeah, the 6 bushings and 3 cables are 75.00 plus shipping and a little for me. 125.00
 

disciple_dan

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Ok, I made the boo-boo of not paying attention when disassembling the time drum. It has a gear on it for keeping power to the TT when winding. The name escapes me at the moment. Anyway, When I pulled the parts out of the wash a little washer was in the mix. I'm not sure where it was but I think it was between the arbor and the click catch gear. I took some pics to help with this question. Please have a look and let me know what you think. Thank you for your time, Danny
The washer is on the drum arbor in pic 3.
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shutterbug

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Maintaining Power ;)
 

disciple_dan

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Well, I'm starting to lose hope in my washer theory. None of the other drums have one so I'm going to look elsewhere. Feel free to help me out though. I'm still willing to take advice. Thanks.
Now, I may have a problem with the pivots. Is it possible that this 1990 Kieninger masterpiece of engineering has plated steels? I thought Kieninger had avoided using that method. I'm looking at some of these pivots and they look plated.
So, did Kieninger do the nasty and plate their pivots? Thanks, Danny
 

Willie X

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I don't think anyone can answer that question for sure.

Modern companies are constantly fiddling with anything that will make things cheaper and thus increase profits. About the only thing that's really healthy in today's economy is greed.

Willie X
 

Willie X

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Well, that washer will only fit on a few shafts/arbors. I would install all those and see which one has excessive end play. That should tell you where it goes.
Willie X
 
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disciple_dan

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I don't think anyone can answer that question for sure.

Modern companies are constantly fiddling with anything that will make things cheaper and thus increase profits. About the only thing that's really healthy in today's economy is greed.

Willie X
Thanks, Willie X. I may have just wreaked the pivots on this one. I'm not sure they're plated but they e that scaly look after coming out of my Rollimat. What can I do about it? Thanks, Willie X
 

disciple_dan

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Here are some pics of a pivot that has been polished with my Rollimat. I'm satisfied with the results of polishing steel pivots with a Rollimat but I don't like the way these look. It leads me to believe they are plated. I polished nearly all of them before I took a close look to see this unsatisfactory finish. I had given the customer my base rate for the cleaning and polishing but left the repair part for when I got it apart on the bench. It needs 16 bushings. I want to be upfront with the customer and tell them what happened and recommend a replacement and a flat rate to install it. I feel bad about it all but don't know exactly how to handle it. Any advice from you pros that may have a similar story? Thanks, Danny
X 60
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Willie X

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Sorry, I've never even seen a rollimat.

If the pivots look OK, I usually just wipe them off and maybe twirl with a bit of 0000 steel wool and machine oil. They don't need to be polished, just smooth.

I don't pick up an older modern clock without an OK on replacing the movement. Otherwise things can get complicated!

if I'm thinking repair, it has to be a clear cut specific job, like replacing cables, broken springs, barrels, etc. usually without a warranty.

Willie X
 

disciple_dan

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Thanks, Willie X. I've been thinking much about starting to refuse to work on most '70s, '80s, and maybe most '90s movements. I'm pretty sure all the Hermles had plated steels and most of the others like Hamilton and many others that were probably made by Hermle. I'll lose jobs I'm sure but I'll lose the would-be troubles that come with it also. This one has definitely become complicated. So, thanks.
If the pivots look OK, I usually just wipe them off and maybe twirl with a bit of 0000 steel wool and machine oil. They don't need to be polished, just smooth.

I don't pick up an older modern clock without an OK on replacing the movement. Otherwise things can get complicated!

if I'm thinking repair, it has to be a clear cut specific job, like replacing cables, broken springs, barrels, etc. usually without a warranty.

Willie X
Was this statement specifically about modern movements?

Here is a video I made for other Rollimat users to try to get an idea of the proper use. I'm not sure if I'm using it to the full potiential. I thought you might like it too Willie X.
Thanks a million, Danny
 

Willie X

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Any pivot that looks good, new or old, will get very little attention from me. :)

Most old stuff can stand a good bit of pressure newer stuff not ... I've heard it called "turd polishing". Ha Willie X
 
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Willie X

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Oh, they have been around for a long time but I've never seen one. I don't count YouTube as actually 'seeing' one. :rolleyes:
Willie X
 

disciple_dan

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Thanks for the vids. That's quite different in the demonstrations. The Aussie spun his for about 3 or 4 sec. The other guy did 10 to 15 sec. I've been doing 20 to 30. I guess I try the shorter times and have a closer look at each.
I'm still pondering what to do about these plated steels. Any advice? The cost of replacement is double my rate for the overhaul. I don't think the overhaul will last very long with the soft pivots:???:
 

Willie X

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Yes, that is the same conclusion I have come to over the last 45 years. The movements made in the early 70s dropped like flies. I didn't know what I was going to do, until I found 'replacements' around 1987. The replacements were a little longer lasting but since around 2010, I've been replacing the replacements!

I don't think anyone would actually buy a new GF, if they knew exactly what they were getting into. There are some exceptions.

Willie X
 
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disciple_dan

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Thanks, Willie X. Do you just tell the customer it needs to be replaced and walk if they don't want to go that route? Danny
 

shutterbug

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I have pretty much concluded that the coating can be removed, and the underlying steel polished. It's softer steel, but still lots harder than brass. The coating flaking off, causing a very rough surface is what destroys the brass pivot hole.
 

disciple_dan

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I have pretty much concluded that the coating can be removed, and the underlying steel polished. It's softer steel, but still lots harder than brass. The coating flaking off, causing a very rough surface is what destroys the brass pivot hole.
How long can you expect a rebuild to last? 10, 20 years?
 

shutterbug

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Yeah, at least 10. I haven't had any come back, but I did change States almost 3 years ago :) Same phone number though, and haven't heard anything.
 

disciple_dan

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I decided to start replacing movements that are suspected of having Plated steels. I did the polish-only (do not burnish) thing on a couple in the recent past but all I do is worry it's going to stop after a few months. I haven't had any calls yet but it worries me. The plating is not going to last so after 20 years why take a chance?
So, I'm waiting for my first Kieninger KSU to arrive. I guess I should put it on the stand for a week and make sure it's working properly.
Do I have to use the pulleys from the original movement? What about the cable stops? Will I need to set that up?
What are some of the things I need to watch for?
Thanks, Danny
 

Willie X

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I just check the oil and put em on the test horse, add the dial and hands. Hang the weights and pendulum, adjust the minuite hand for correct drop and let her go.

Test the moon dial operation carefully (off the clock) and tripple check the drive gear position, when it's on the clock.

The next day or two, I rewind and test the weight stops at the top, reset the hands and start testing the rate and the daily weight drop.

For the past 15 years or so, I've gone to two week test runs. The last week has to have no adjustments. Any adjustments gets another week.

Good luck, Willie X
 

disciple_dan

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I just check the oil and put em on the test horse, add the dial and hands. Hang the weights and pendulum, adjust the minuite hand for correct drop and let her go.

Test the moon dial operation carefully (off the clock) and tripple check the drive gear position, when it's on the clock.

The next day or two, I rewind and test the weight stops at the top, reset the hands and start testing the rate and the daily weight drop.

For the past 15 years or so, I've gone to two week test runs. The last week has to have no adjustments. Any adjustments gets another week.

Good luck, Willie X
Willie X. Thanks for that practiced wisdom. I'll do as you say. Thank God I haven't had many callbacks yet but I don't like any of the ones I've had. Do it right the first time!
Thanks to all for your helpful comments. Danny
 

Willie X

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If you approach it right, you can often 'warm up' the customer up to the fact their movement will have to be replaced every 20 to 25 years.

Even though you may be able to get it going again with some judicious pegging and oiling, don't play this up as a repair. Play it down as maybe adding a little more run time to the badly worn movement.

This way, when they do call you next time they will be ready to spend the money for a new movement, even if it only ran for a week! Or, if it ran for a few years, they may want you to do your magic again. Just keep downplaying and access the clock again. I had to eat crow on one ole Hermle 451 that kept limping along for 9 years before the clock and the customer finally gave in!

Willie X
 

disciple_dan

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Ok, this is the new unit I got to replace this worn-out Kieninger. In this picture, it is 4:27 PM. Is this ANSO set up to shut off the chime and strike at 10:00? In theory. It is a factory set.
I have not been able to get it to shut off at night. I'm doing a test tonight. Please let me know what you think. Thank you, Danny
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MARK A. BUTTERWORTH

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Ok, this is the new unit I got to replace this worn-out Kieninger. In this picture, it is 4:27 PM. Is this ANSO set up to shut off the chime and strike at 10:00? In theory. It is a factory set.
I have not been able to get it to shut off at night. I'm doing a test tonight. Please let me know what you think. Thank you, Danny
View attachment 723365
In the picture shown it is not yet in the 10pm and beyond mode. None the lever is riding on the low part of the ANSO cam.
Regarding pulleys in the earlier question, you can use the original or purchase them extra with the movement.
 

disciple_dan

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Yes, I knew that. I was asking if the selector switch and the ANSO cam were in position for the 10 PM shut-off. And they were. However, the factory worker had installed the pin on the lever with the lifting pin behind the vertical arm with the spring on it instead of in front so it wasn't shutting off at all. If you look closely at the pic in post #33 you will see it. Thanks again to New65 for leading me to the fix. It's working great now and will be ready to go back to the customer next week. Thanks for the comments, Danny
 

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