Keystone Abbott.

[Allan C. Purcell]

Last evening, I bought an Abbott Sure Time. Some good photographs first.

Serial Number, 993571, with Abbott Sure Time on the dial. I have read that Sure Time on the dial is normal, but can be washed off, especially when found on open-face watches, this one is in a nice rolled gold case. Made by B & B. according to Warren H Niebling to be Bates & Bacon, though there is another B & B in New York if I remember correctly.

Nice early Art Nouveau hunter case in good condition.

Notice here, warranted 25 years, that then is usually 14K Rolled Gold. Comments welcomed.

E. Howard & Co. - E. Howard & Co. Data Sources and Discussion Threads

Overview: This sticky thread was created to collect in one place all the most useful information sources for collectors of E. Howard & Co. (EH&Co) pocket watches, including attached articles, internal links to NAWCC Bulletin articles, other NAWCC Message Board threads, our own EH&Co Encyclopedia...

mb.nawcc.org

Abbott Watch Co.

Keystone-Howard built a number of 16-size, 17-jewel, Series 3, hunting movements bearing the private label watch marking, "Abbott Watch Co." The dials of these watches carried the signature, "Abbott Sure Time" which seems not to have been fired onto the dial (or covered with a clear glaze that was then fired onto the dial), as a number of surviving examples of these have a deteriorated signature, or are now unsigned. In late 2012, one such example was reported to have had the signature, but it came off when the dial was cleaned.

It has been said that the watches were sold this way in order to clear less popular (very slow selling) movements out of inventory and that Keystone-Howard created attractive pricing for them. The reduced demand for hunting-case watches in the mid-to-late teens (when these were made) would seem to support this theory. However, there is no documentation that this was anything other than a common instance of a movement manufacturer producing specially marked movements/dials under contract for a third party. Nevertheless, it was unusual for Keystone-Howard to have participated in this practice. The fact that these movements were marketed separately as a private label watch (i.e., not bearing the E. Howard name) means that they were not sold (by Keystone-Howard) as complete watches and would therefore not be in Howard-signed, factory cases. Reported examples of these Abbott Watch Co. movements are identified in the Keystone-Howard 16-Size, 17-Jewel, 3/4-Plate Movement Examples Encyclopedia article.

Howard Watches Catalog (1909) | PWDB Digital Archive

Digitized publication archived by the Pocket Watch Database.

pocketwatchdatabase.com

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

PS: Came across this in the above Howard Watches catalogue (1909)

My watch is on the right. They look at first to be the same watch, but there are some slight differences.

 

[Kent]

Made by B & B.

Wow! Another nice watch!

Yes, the B&B Favorite case was made by Bates & Bacon (actually under the Keystone Watch Case Co. by the time your case was made).

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

Yes, the B&B Favorite case was made by Bates & Bacon (actually under the Keystone Watch Case Coby at the time your case was made).

Thanks again Kent, that is all new to me. Would I be able to say I have an Edward Howard PL? Keystone did in fact buy the Howard company in 1905, along with the purchase of the Howard Name. These Abbott movements must have come from the Howard factory-or?

Allan.

 

[musicguy]

Only correction I would add is that it's the E. Howard Watch Co (Keystone) not
Edward Howard. Names matter.



Rob

 

[Kent]

... Would I be able to say I have an Edward Howard PL ...

Not quite - as Rob has pointed out, what you have is a very nice E. Howard Watch Co. private label watch. Refer to section "6. Abbott Watch Co." in the Encyclopedia article (which you quoted near the end of your original post).

... Keystone did in fact buy the Howard company in 1905, along with the purchase of the Howard Name. ...

No, the Keystone Watch Case Co. only bought the rights to use the Howard name on watches - in 1903. These were at first made by Waltham and by around 1905 they were making the watches in the former United States Watch Co., Waltham, Mass plant (owned by Keystone). The manufacturing plant of the E. Howard & Co. continued under the name of the E. Howard Clock Company making, as you might expect, clocks and replacement parts (material) for their former line of watches.

... These Abbott movements must have come from the Howard factory-or?
...

Yes!

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

Yes, it´s becoming clear now. Though I have to be very pleased with this watch, it is the only one on with "Abbott Sure Time" on the dial. Or are there more somewhere else? Great fun this.

Allan.

 

[Bila]

Yes, it´s becoming clear now. Though I have to be very pleased with this watch, it is the only one on with "Abbott Sure Time" on the dial. Or are there more somewhere else? Great fun this.

Allan.

To my knowledge they all had "Abbott Sure Time" on the dials mate, the reason there is a stack of them with no name is that people try to soak hairlines out.Thus removing the name on the dial, as it is only printed/stamped on the top of the glaze and not under the fired glaze

This is much like Illinois dials, you will see plenty that have been soaked and are faded in name & numerals also, the Bunn & Bunn Special dials are especially susceptible, as are the Getty movement dials, for that matter most of the Illinois dials are prone to this when soaked.

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

To my knowledge they all had "Abbott Sure Time" on the dials mate, the reason there is a stack of them with no name is that people try to soak hairlines out.Thus removing the name on the dial, as it is only printed/stamped on the top of the glaze and not under the fired glaze

Hi Bila, thanks for the information, though I did mention it at the top of post 1. Also in post 1 is a list of Keystone Howards 16s many of these watches are stamped "Pat 05" and the Abbott movements have it too. Do you know what that tells us? Could it be they are all Abbott watches?

Allan

 

[Kent]

... Also in post 1 is a list of Keystone Howards 16s many of these watches are stamped "Pat 05" and the Abbott movements have it too. ... Could it be they are all Abbott watches?

As explained in the E. Howard Watch Co. Encyclopedia article:

"By 1905, Keystone-Howard had patented a 16-size, 17-jewel, three-quarter plate movement design which they began making in both hunting-case and open-face versions under the "E. Howard Watch Co." name."

The only Howard movements sold to, and were marketed by, the Abbott Watch Co. are the 16-size, 17-jewelter plate movements bearing the "Abbott Watch Co." marking.

These are listed in the Keystone-Howard 16-Size, 17-Jewel, 3/4-Plate Movement Examples Encyclopedia article:

Please feel free to ask about anything that isn't clear to you.

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

Thanks again Kent, the information I have is slowly sinking in. So after buying the Edward Howard Watch Company name, and the factory, c1903 they decided to make a 16s 17Jewelled, in a hunter case, some in open face cases too, about 1905. Only the ones marked Abbott on the known list are Abbott watches. So a Keystone-Howard PL. Will know more when it arrives, and yes I did have permission to publish the seller's photographs, just in case anyone asks. (The seller said he was flattered).

Allan

 

[Nathan Moore]

Also in post 1 is a list of Keystone Howards 16s many of these watches are stamped "Pat 05" and the Abbott movements have it too. Do you know what that tells us?

The "Pat'd '05" marking is a reference to Taft's patented stem wind mechanism, granted on August 1, 1905. This patent is also referenced on various certificate cards that originally accompanied the watches when sold.

Patent Watch Stem Wind Mech by Ryland L. Taft Issued Aug 1, 1905

Horology Patents - Patent Watch Stem Wind Mech by Ryland L. Taft Issued Aug 1, 1905

pocketwatchdatabase.com

There are a handful of other patents utilized during the span of E. Howard Watch Co. production as well, compiled here:

Pocket Watch Patents Archive | Pocket Watch Database

Serial lookups, info, specs, and value for American antique pocket watches covering manufacturers like Elgin, Illinois, Waltham, and Hamilton

pocketwatchdatabase.com

One of the best studies of the E. Howard 16-Size "1905" production was published by Selman A. Berger in the Nov/Dec 2016 issue of the NAWCC Bulletin. It is certainly worth a read if you are interested in learning more about this model. There is a section dedicated to the Abbott watches as well. Here is a link for members of the NAWCC:

Log In

docs.nawcc.org

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

Dear Nathan,
That really was a great read, and I now like the watch much better than before. The sad side of this story is, I do have the NAWCC Nov./Dec 2016 here. My problem, I knew nothing about American watches in 2016, and I should have gone through those journals much earlier. I will from now on. Another mistake I made was to jump in and buy American watches, but only ones I liked, then that slowly, was nearly all of them. Only last week I decided to concentrate on the Illinois Watch Company, it was then I bought the Abbott. So I must stand back for a while, though knowing myself, I will be looking for another Keystone-Howard, series 4.

Though thank you again for all your help.

Allan.

 

[Kent]

... So after buying the Edward Howard Watch Company name, and the factory, ...

Again (from my Post #6) ...
" No, the Keystone Watch Case Co. only bought the rights to use the Howard name on watches - in 1903. These were at first made by Waltham and by around 1905 they were making the watches in the former United States Watch Co., Waltham, Mass plant (owned by Keystone). The manufacturing plant of the E. Howard & Co. continued under the name of the E. Howard Clock Company making, as you might expect, clocks and replacement parts (material) for their former line of watches."

... Only the ones marked Abbott on the known list are Abbott watches. ...

Almost; only the ones marked Abbott are Abbott watches.

The list (Keystone-Howard 16-Size, 17-Jewel, 3/4-Plate Movement Examples) is not a complete list. As its noted at the top of the article:

" Below is a table of observed surviving examples ... The movements initially listed in this table were drawn from the data base created and maintained by Ed Ueberall and Kent Singer. ..."