Keyed and keyless? (Barraud & Lunds)

[jplotkin]

What's the deal with this terrific movement by Barraud & Lunds?

It is a fusee, which winds and works well. But there is an elaborate form of keyless works on the backside, with some neat click mechanisms that I've not seen before. Is all this simply for time-setting, or was it possible to wind and time-set both by the stem at some point?

Thanks for input.

 

[SKennedy]

Yes, that's definitly keyless winding and hand setting. There is so much variety in the designs on these rocking bar arrangements through the 1870s-1890s. The purpose of them all is to disengage the fusee winding wheel, which will rotate when the watch runs, from the rest of the winding wheels. The pin for setting on this is on the opposite side from 'usual' ie would be located on the case band around 11 rather than 1. I think the purpose of the long curved spring is to cause the smaller winding wheel, which is located on the rocking bar, to 'climb' into mesh with the wheel on the fusee when the bevel wheel is turned anticlockwise by the winding stem. The arrangement on the fusee wheel could be to allow a bit of controlled float so that it can fall in and out of mesh more easily. To dismantle this would likely unscrew from the arbor (possibly left hand thread) using the two holes to insert a tool.

 

[jplotkin]

Okay. I think it’s worthwhile to experiment a bit to understand this particular arrangement. Thanks very much. (I love the circular click with internal “crescent” spring)

 

[John Matthews]

This keyless fusee mechanism is seen on a number of Barrard & Lund movements. From a cursory examination of examples it appears to occur in various forms that differ slightly in detail. I believe they may have been based on the early rocking bar patent registered by Mitchell and Gartner in 1856 with the mechanism accommodated by a recess in the pillar plate. It was used on Savage fusee second series movements by B&L - Mercer describes some as later conversions, but others have indicated that they might be original. I believe the original patent only used one thumb-nail push pieces - but in later series 3 examples there were two, which from your photographs I infer is the case with this example. These two seem to be of the type.

Jagger's description of 3/2548

3/4 plate fusee keyless lever, engraved barrel cover, winding and setting by button & two push pieces or by key through the cuvette​

Jagger's description of 3/3278 (gold case 1883)

Fusee keyless lever. Thumb nail push pieces on either side of the pendant: in dial-up position, the left-hand one permits setting hands (turning clockwise only), the right-hand one for winding the mainspring (anti-clockwise only). Said to be signed on movement BARRAUD & LUNDS.​

You will have to check whether the functionality is as described.

John

 

[SKennedy]

I did wonder if this might have been one intended for a two pin operation, especially since there is a cut out in the edge of the plate in the right place on the winding side. The two pin version I have photos of is a simpler arrangement though. Also that long curved spring doesn't quite match the rest somehow. So perhaps, if it does function as I've described and causes the winding wheels to come together when wound forwards, it is actually a later modification.

 

[Dr. Jon]

The two pins are in use because a straight connection of the stem to the fusee results in the stem turning backward as the watch runs. The fear was that the stem would catch in a thread in the pocket and stop the watch.

Whether a valid concern or not, almost all keyless fusee watches have some form of stem disengagement when the watch is not being wound.


Also almost all keyless fuzee watches have square arbors for key winding and setting usually with holes in the cuvette.

 

[John Matthews]

The two pins are in use because a straight connection of the stem to the fusee results in the stem turning backward as the watch runs

Jon - as I indicated the initial patent upon which I believe this keyless fusee mechanism is based (Mitchell & Gartner patent 2068 September 1856), only had one push piece and operated as Seth described. To quote the patent ...

The side wheel for engaging the fusee wheel is pressed by a spring, so that the first effect of turning the winding stem to wind, tilts the bar in opposition to the spring until the wheels gear. Pressure of the button puts the other side wheel in gear with the minute hand.​

While you are correct that it is necessary to disengage the winding stem from the fusee to avoid rotation, the original design of this three wheel rocking bar achieved that without the need for two pins.

I am not certain whether this is a one or two pin design. We need John to confirm having the movement in-hand. My reason for considering two pin operation was because it is clear, from Jagger's that B&L did use two pins in some of their designs at the time that this movement was made.

John

 

[Tom McIntyre]

Barraud actually advertised the two button version of the keyless watches as the "reliable design".

I am pretty sure that David Penney has some material on his site regarding this question. He also, of course, reproduced their turn of the 20th century product catalog.

Barraud also used Lund's patented removable stem that was just a KW/KS movement with the key concealed in the pendant. Those were mostly for the Lund Brothers line which is distinct from the Barraud & Lund line of watches from the same period.

My collection page on Barraud needs a little work but can be seen here AWCo Web

 

[Bernhard J.]

A variant was in the Blockley "explorers watch". Winding either with key or keyless. Setting, however, with key only.

Cheers, Bernhard

 

[Tom McIntyre]

I have never owned or really examined one of those, but I just presumed the setting was by pulling up on the crown.

The Waltham Fitch's patent case has the same feature of the sealing cap over the stem.

 

[Bernhard J.]

I indeed actually never tried that in my believe . I will test that and blame you, if I rip the crown out of the watch with my pipe wrench . Just joking (previous sentence, less the "I will test that").

Cheers, Bernhard

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

Just joking (previous sentence, less the "I will test that").

Hi Bernard, here is another one, a Hammdon private label "Imperial Watch Co. Chicago" Stem wind handset with a pull-out lever. See Pics.

You use your fingernail, don´t use pliers. I tried it once with my teeth and bit my tongue.

 

[Bernhard J.]

I tried it once with my teeth and bit my tongue.

Although presumably quite inappropriate, that really made me laugh. Now I just need to get rid of the picture of you biting your watch.

 

[SKennedy]

I indeed actually never tried that in my believe . I will test that and blame you, if I rip the crown out of the watch with my pipe wrench . Just joking (previous sentence, less the "I will test that").
Cheers, Bernhard

I don't think you'll find it works. I've seen a handful and they all were just key set on the back of the movement. These were precision watches and well adjusted. I think the expectiation was that they would not have needed setting very often.

Intruigingly there is a (drawn) image of one in the Penney reprint of the Nicole Nielsen catalogue that shows what appears to be a pinset button incorporated on one side of the pendant, under the cap next to the winding crown. I've not seen a photo of one actually made like this as far as I can recall but it would have been a good solution.

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

Now I just need to get rid of the picture of you biting your watch.

Bernard, I forgot the photographs, sorry, I was cleaning my teeth at the time.

 

[Bernhard J.]

I've seen a handful and they all were just key set on the back of the movement.

Indeed so in case of my Blockley, I checked it this weekend (although I must admit that I did not attempt to pull the crown with my teeth )

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

Now back to this thread, members who use the American watch forum, will know I am looking at early American watches in Dueber coin silver cases.

Yesterday I bought a nice Illinois watch company with a 4 oz Dueber coin silver case serial number 153902 which I think is for 1877 (Firm Registered 1876) I Will tell you more in the other thread, the point here is, at the bottom of the page I was reading.

Note.: Numerous models 2 & 3 movements have key-wind style barrel arbours and stem wind capabilities. They are referred to as transition models. When models 2&3 were introduced the factory must have had a large supply of key-wind style barrel arbours, so being frugal they were used.

Illinois watches of course. Though I see many of the other American factories doing the same.

Allan