Ketterer Biedermeier twin fusee shelf cuckoo

Discussion in 'Your Newest Clock Acquisition' started by ballistarius, Jan 10, 2014.

  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  1. ballistarius

    ballistarius Registered User

    Oct 26, 2009
    704
    2
    18
    Male
    Architect
    Bilbao, Basque Country
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Hello everybody,

    Last add to my collection has been a pretty shelf cuckoo by Theodor Ketterer. As usual in Ketterer's production, there's no label or writing to identify it but, thanks to the diagnostic features enumerated by Dr. Schneider's on his last book, there is no doubt about the maker.
    678748220_o.jpg
    The case is a Biedermeier ebonized, the movement is a twin fusee wooden cage.
    678748325_o.jpg 678748336_o.jpg

    Aitor
     
  2. ballistarius

    ballistarius Registered User

    Oct 26, 2009
    704
    2
    18
    Male
    Architect
    Bilbao, Basque Country
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    As usual with these clocks of the 1860's there are the ineludible issues (at least within the reach of my limited budget:rolleyes:)
    Starting with the case, the present bird's door is a poor replacement:
    IMG_6681.jpg
    Of course, I plan to have a new one made and painted to match the rest of the case. I suppose that the best choice would be to fill it with the silhouette of a bird between floral designs. I lack a clear close-up pic of one of these doors, could somebody, please, help me?

    The case has also minor paintlosses and veneer bubbles. Teh floral painting on the skirt is eroded and will need some 'refreshment':
    IMG_6680.jpg
    The enamelled dial has some scratches from careless handling and somebody re-attached it to the case by means of two visible screws :cuckoo:
    IMG_6682.jpg IMG_6684.jpg
    All in all, a nices case, only needing retouches by a proffessional restorer:coolsign:

    Aitor
     
  3. ballistarius

    ballistarius Registered User

    Oct 26, 2009
    704
    2
    18
    Male
    Architect
    Bilbao, Basque Country
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    The movement has also suffered from various 'sinner' hands...
    678748645_o.jpg
    The bellows' leather was replaced with paper and damaging too mcuh the marmorized paper wrapping :mad: They work OK and I don't intend to correct them until there are air losses or I need to dismantle the movement. The same for the synthetic gut in the fusees.
    678748702_o.jpg
    The ratchet click on the going barrel was replaced by another one which works perfectly (perhaps better than the original) but is very different from the original design:
    IMG_6673.jpg
    Teh movement is working but I'm still struggling to adjust it without dismantling:screwball:
    The bird (a nice slender one, which will undoubtedly profit from a cleaning) starts peeping out during the warning, but if I bend the lever, it doesn't appear at all...
    IMG_6670.jpg
    Going side: IMG_6677.JPG
    Stgriking side: IMG_6679.jpg

    Aitor
     
  4. klokwiz

    klokwiz Registered User
    NAWCC Member Donor

    Feb 4, 2009
    1,043
    1
    38
    WRENCH
    Annapolis, MD
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Aitor,

    very nice clock, especially like your close-up of the bird. Bravo.

    Joe.
     
  5. ballistarius

    ballistarius Registered User

    Oct 26, 2009
    704
    2
    18
    Male
    Architect
    Bilbao, Basque Country
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Many thanks, Joe:)
    I have run out of space in my flat but, when I saw this one more or less within my 'reach' I simply couldn't resist...o:)

    Aitor
     
  6. ANTIQUECUCKOOCLOCK.ORG

    ANTIQUECUCKOOCLOCK.ORG Registered User

    Dec 28, 2011
    528
    1
    0
    COLLECTOR, RESTORER, PRESERVER, TRADER.
    Absolutely fantastic clock. At the height of the golden era, and a wonderful post! BRAVO!
    beautiful pics, and a great assessment and photo group.
    As for the bird door, I think it could be a few variations. could be a bird or a garnish, flowers,... here are a couple.

    $_12.JPG 1.jpg 445.jpg
     
  7. ballistarius

    ballistarius Registered User

    Oct 26, 2009
    704
    2
    18
    Male
    Architect
    Bilbao, Basque Country
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Many thanks for the compliments,:D Jeff
    It seems to me that there is some kind of problem with the striking train's mainspring and, in the end, I'll have to carry the movement to the 'doctor'. :confused: It will be a good chance to see if the letters 'TK' are stamped inside the barrrelYoda

    Many thanks for the pics, too. Lacking any exact parallel, I still have a penchant for the bird:p Do you have a close-up of the door, please?

    Aitor
     
  8. ANTIQUECUCKOOCLOCK.ORG

    ANTIQUECUCKOOCLOCK.ORG Registered User

    Dec 28, 2011
    528
    1
    0
    COLLECTOR, RESTORER, PRESERVER, TRADER.
    NP, on the pics. If you print it itll be nearly 1 to 1
    Ill be interested in the update from the "doc"

    Hey, ok, I have to share this.. you used the little yoda emotocon.
    It took me a min to see it, but at first, It looks like a little green man with his arms up behind his head.
    and the sword... :) well look at it.... ha ha ha.... .Yoda I thought to myself, "well, thats ONE way to portray a happy guy. HA!
     
  9. Albra

    Albra Registered User

    Oct 17, 2006
    1,311
    4
    0
    Hi Aitor, this really is a very nice clock. Also, the state of preservation is excellent in my opinion. Why You're sure that the doors have been replaced? Do not have all the doors exactly the same look and style?

    In your place I would again think carefully about whether I would make to the housing any "restoration". Because most restorations can be seen very well in general, and then are more disturbing than the original condition. I don´t think, it´s worth.

    Over the workshop of Theodor Ketterer we have fairly accurate information: Theodor Ketterer has made only the movements, but related the cases. The workshop Theodor Ketterer had also a very few number of workers (about 5), was taken over in 1884 by his son Aron and existed until 1914.

    When I look at the mechanics of your fusee movement, I think your clock is of a late date.

    Congrats, a very beautiful clock in perfect condition!

    albra
     
  10. ballistarius

    ballistarius Registered User

    Oct 26, 2009
    704
    2
    18
    Male
    Architect
    Bilbao, Basque Country
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Jeff,
    Many thanks again :D I am afraid that the resolution of the pics has been lowered for uploading here. Would you mind to email me your original .jpg, file, please?
    After I 'discovered' that yoda emoticon, I was looking forward to use it somewhere...:whistle:
    I'll tell you what happens when i carry the movement to my repairer. For the moment, I have the clock running. When I received it, the going train wound smoothly, but it was nearly impossible to wind the line fully around the striking side fusee and the posts could appear in the verge of collapse...:eek: of course, not only that and the lever slipped often over any slot of the count-wheel and there were (are) sudden ominous sounds from inside the barrel...
    I have released pre-tension from the barrel and winding up is now easy and there is no miscounting, but the mainspring hasn't enough power as to drive the striking train when the last turns of the line are unwinding from the fusee. Teh 'ominous' sound appears at theis point and, after that, the spring seems to recover its power for a short time. I looks like I need a new mainspring...:cuckoo:

    Aitor
     
  11. ballistarius

    ballistarius Registered User

    Oct 26, 2009
    704
    2
    18
    Male
    Architect
    Bilbao, Basque Country
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Albra, many thanks for your message:D
    About the doors, the side ones are original, it is the bird door which isn,t. It is difficult to make it clear from a photo, but the material and finish is totally different to the rest of the case and it is too thin.
    Dont' worry, my restorer is a competent proffessional and I'll ask him what he thinks about touching the case or leaving as it is. This one is surely the most expensive clock I'll ever own and I don't want to ruin it.
    I supposed that Ketterer was only responsible for the movement. Is there any way to have a hint a bout the case maker? :confused:

    I am puzzled about the 'late date' you mention. Could you be more, precise, please? Which features in the movement lead you to state that? :excited:
    I was about to answer Jeff and you earlier, but i've been busy making a drawing of my other shelf cuckoo https://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?86674-Help-with-PHS-shelf-cuckoo-clock%21 bird's door to have it completed. It looked from the photos as being original and complete, but it has resulted neither 'complete' nor 'fully' original...:bang:

    Door-unrestored.jpg remains-of-door.jpg

    Aitor
     
  12. ANTIQUECUCKOOCLOCK.ORG

    ANTIQUECUCKOOCLOCK.ORG Registered User

    Dec 28, 2011
    528
    1
    0
    COLLECTOR, RESTORER, PRESERVER, TRADER.
    Your Ketterer clock is 1865 to 1870.. Give or take a few years. I consider this an earlier clock.
    You are certainly correct about the cuckoo door. Its totally wrong.
    And while Ketterer made the movements, (like some firms did) he made the whole clock, and then sold it. They sometimes bought cases pre-made, raw, and then fitted the movement, bird, bellows and gong.
    Known carvers of the day were, Rupert and Peter Wehrle, (master carvers) father and son. Responsible for the earlier and masterful carvings seen on the Beha clocks and other firms like Ketterer.

    And Augustin Tritschler and son, Who were masterful architectural case makers. More or less cabinet makers. They made some of the most beautiful architectural cases known. Also they built (arguably) one of the greatest clocks to ever come from the Black forest.

    Ca 1890.

    The Sackingen trumpeter clock, or "Scheffel Uhr" Here is a photo.
    (relax mods) I took this photo myself at the Deutshes Uhernmuseum in Furtwangen, Germany.


    11.jpg
    for scale I asked my sweet little lady to hold her hand near it. Its roughly 82" tall.
    Absolutely magnificent.
    On a side note there were dozens of case and cabinet makers in the BF at the time, these are just a couple of the better known wood workers. :)
     
  13. Albra

    Albra Registered User

    Oct 17, 2006
    1,311
    4
    0
    #13 Albra, Jan 11, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 12, 2014
    No, I know of no evidence of the case manufacturers. And I suspect that Ketterer has purchased his cases with different manufacturers. As ANTIQUECUCKOOCLOCK.ORG suggests, many names come into consideration and today we know very few names, as the case manufacturers have not inserted in the journals.

    I am not a specialist for Ketterer clocks and I therefore can not assign an unsigned clock Ketterer. But I know old documents: Ketterer has offered more than 100 (!) different cocks in a catalog in 1901. This suggests a small factory operation, but we do not know whether the clock case are related only raw, or were also painted by Ketterer. Also we do not know the number of employees by 1900.

    Because of dating: Please look at the gong and the gears. Also the case gives me the impression of a certain machining. But that really is a very beautiful and very well preserved clock. Very many will envy at this clock ! Congratulations!

    albra
     
  14. ballistarius

    ballistarius Registered User

    Oct 26, 2009
    704
    2
    18
    Male
    Architect
    Bilbao, Basque Country
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Many thanks, Jeff and Albra:D (BTW, awesome clock, Jeff. One day I must pay a visit to that museum!)
    About the date, I would thank you Albra, if you could be more specific on what do you mean by 'late date' :confused: I am by no means an expert , but I thought my clock was made during the interval pointed out by Jeff, i.e. second half of 1860's. That is not an early date for T. Ketterer's production, but I am under the impression that you're mildly suggesting that the clock should be placed around 1900... Am I right? Weren't Biedermeier style cases out of fashion by that date?

    Aitor
     
  15. Albra

    Albra Registered User

    Oct 17, 2006
    1,311
    4
    0
    Yes, I would say 1890 but rather later. But I must admit, even in Germany, no one has yet thought about how a movement or a housing 1860, 1880 or 1900 has been established. What tools and when the first machines were utilized, etc. Here there is still much to explore. And around 1900 very different types of clocks were made: German Historism, Art deco, BF with Lackschild, Rundrahmen-Uhren, Bahnhäusle-Kuckuck, BF with porcellain-dials, common Kuckucks, French Pendules, Regulators, Bracket clocks and many more.

    I would like to draw your attention to something else: Neither Fusee-movements, nor the design of your clock was intended for the German market, but mostly for the English market. And for the clock trade with England were slightly different rules than for trade in Germany. Whence comes your clock? Do you know?


    albra
     
  16. ballistarius

    ballistarius Registered User

    Oct 26, 2009
    704
    2
    18
    Male
    Architect
    Bilbao, Basque Country
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Yes, you're right, it is difficult to stablish when and which kind of machines were employed by German case and clockmakers. Not like in the Connecticut clock industry, where machines were in full use rather early in the nineteenth century...
    About this one, I forgot to mention that detail. Yes, as you say, this kind of clock was specially intended for British market and I bought it from England, indeed.:cool:
    What I ignore is if that information can help to date it. Does it?

    Aitor
     
  17. Albra

    Albra Registered User

    Oct 17, 2006
    1,311
    4
    0
    No, about the age says nothing , but on the Black Forest clockmakers who worked for export.

    For the German market , the BF clockmakers had all kinds of traders who have bought them the clocks. In the export that was usually different. For England , Russia, Turkey the BF clockmakers had only one "agent" and that was very often a relative. This agent now wanted to purchase all kinds of clocks from a clockmaker or a family of clockmakers and sell .

    We know ( but I do not have it ) a catalog of Ketterer from 1901 in which more than 100 different clocks were offered. This proves that Ketterer mounted into every conceivable case of a clock from a manufacturer that provided the case with a movement and could deliver it to England. But that still says nothing about the farm size, ( = number of workers ) , no equipment or the degree of division of labor. But that Ketterer could supply all kinds of clocks!

    I am not an expert on Ketterer clocks, but I expect in high quality Ketterer clocks fusee -movements, but in common Cockoos most likely related cast movements of Burger ( Schonach ) or Siedle ( Triberg )

    Enjoy your clock! Yes, it´s a beautiful one! But please take care about the painting in the heat of Spain!

    albra
     
  18. harold bain

    harold bain Forums Administrator
    NAWCC Member Donor

    Nov 4, 2002
    40,087
    46
    48
    Male
    self-employed in the clock business
    Whitby, Ontario, Canada
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I find it quite interesting that in America, wooden movement clocks were no longer made after about 1840, after the Jerome brothers came out with cheaply made brass movements to take their place. Yet there seems to be no easily seen cutoff date for wooden movement clocks in Germany. Even with American type movements being made by major makers like Junghans. Was brass that expensive that a wooden movement clock could be made cheaper? Any ideas about this Albra?
    Also, one of the negatives with wooden movement clocks in America was that they couldn't be shipped due to warping, whereas brass didn't have this problem, and ended up being shipped pretty much everywhere in the world. Wasn't this also a problem with German wooden works clocks?
     
  19. ANTIQUECUCKOOCLOCK.ORG

    ANTIQUECUCKOOCLOCK.ORG Registered User

    Dec 28, 2011
    528
    1
    0
    COLLECTOR, RESTORER, PRESERVER, TRADER.
    Harold, Yes, The brass was more money in the higher end clocks Like Ketterer or Beha, I have original catalogs showing the brass movement in the 8 day clocks as a pretty hefty upgrade.
    And Albra.. thanks for sharing. Interesting as usual.

    Ballistarias: The subtle details are what i go by in determining a likely age, its usually not exact, but its pretty good.
    In Beha clocks for example there are close records kept and observing the details of a KNOWN and factory dated clock, one can compare the details to others not known and dial in a pretty close date. some of their details changed very slightly, and over the years allowing a rendering to be made.. Again its not exact, but in a case like this, where there is not exact record showing the exact clock leaving the floor, its what we have to go by.
    These methods of dating i was given first: by my own observations, and also by some of the truly great researchers, with collections far beyond my own.. many of whom are published and very well known and respected.
     
  20. Albra

    Albra Registered User

    Oct 17, 2006
    1,311
    4
    0
    Harold , those are interesting questions! But unfortunately, I am very little familiar with the american conditions. Our veteran Doug Stevenson a few years ago wrote an article and I think most of your questions can be explained by different distribution channels in the U.S. and Germany :

    In Germany , BF-manufacturers have paid attention to long-term trade relations. Very often family members have taken over the distribution of the clocks. In America, there was not this: The " Sam Slicks " came to Connecticut and took 10 clocks of Gilbert and sold , the next time they took 10 clocks of Waterbury. Depending on what seemed to them favorable. As Chauncey and Noble Jerome have made their first movements entirely of brass , they have provided from one day to the American clock market on its head. Something like this would not have been possible in Germany!

    Second: The BF manufacturer in general were spezialised to a single market , supplying this market. But the markets were different : The world best clocks have made at the end of the 17th Century the English and the French. Black Forest clocks were indeed cheap, but you must have in mind : What can be sold? And in England and France at a very early wooden clocks were no longer be sold . In contrast, however, in Russia and Austria / Hungary: These markets were much longer supplied with wood clocks. The different markets will have also made sure that a clockmaker have even longer made clocks with timber, than another.
    Another point:
    We must not forget how far Germany in its technological development was returned to France: Still in 1850, there was no brass foundry in Württemberg. In Baden there were some brass foundries, but the cast was so bad that the Uhrmacherschule Furtwangen organized scholarships by France to produce better cast brass in Baden. And as we all know: In comparison, the French have been about 100 years their clocks parts are no longer cast in 1850, but punched!


    For transportation: I think one had to gain experience, such as clocks must be packed for sea transport. The first shipped American clocks to Europe nearly all were broken: The cases were from the glue, the movements were eroded of the sea air.

    But we have very far removed us from the clock of Balistarius. So we finish our debate.

    Balistarius, once again: Congrats to your very nice clock!

    albra
     
  21. ballistarius

    ballistarius Registered User

    Oct 26, 2009
    704
    2
    18
    Male
    Architect
    Bilbao, Basque Country
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    No concern about a little off-topic chat on American WW and BF clocks. I collect both of them!;)
    No concern at all about 'hot' Spain either. Where I live, the Northern coast, climate is very akin to that of South England... rainy and, sometimes, miserable:rolleyes:
    I am much more afraid of central heating in my flat: Humidity is descending to 30% and this is the first winter this clock will spend with me:cuckoo:

    Aitor
     
  22. ballistarius

    ballistarius Registered User

    Oct 26, 2009
    704
    2
    18
    Male
    Architect
    Bilbao, Basque Country
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    #22 ballistarius, Feb 25, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 26, 2017
    Update

    Hello,

    The clock returned home after being overhauled by the clock repairer. Now I've sent the case to the restorer to have all the veneer and paint issues corrected and to have the new bird door suitably ebonized and painted.

    The movement is now caseless but happily ticking and cuckooing on a bookshelf. It's been the moment for installing on it the two embossed brass bands it lacked and I purchased later (expensive and quarrelsome auction for such a tiny itemsYoda).
    IMG_1794.jpg
    Regards,

    Aitor
     
  23. ballistarius

    ballistarius Registered User

    Oct 26, 2009
    704
    2
    18
    Male
    Architect
    Bilbao, Basque Country
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Update: Case restored

    [​IMG]Well, three years after I purchased it, my Ketterer is finally fully restoredNutjob
    I've fetched the case from the restorer's and put the movement inside again .
    The ugly screws piercing the enamelled dial have been suppresed and the holes masked. The missing painted decoration at the skirt has been re-done:
    [​IMG][​IMG]

    The bird's door has been ebonized and painted with a suitable motif (Many thanks to Jeff and the Piekarski brothers for supplying models:clap:)
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    The movement is inside its case after a long time. Let's see if the bird gets used to be caged again...:cuckoo:

    Aitor
     

    Attached Files:

  24. gleber

    gleber Registered User

    Jun 15, 2015
    774
    1
    18
    Downingtown, Pennsylvania USA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Re: Update: Case restored

    A true Masterpiece - original and the restoration! And you have a lot more patience than I have.

    Tom
     
  25. ballistarius

    ballistarius Registered User

    Oct 26, 2009
    704
    2
    18
    Male
    Architect
    Bilbao, Basque Country
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Re: Update: Case restored

    Many thanks, Tom!:D
    Patience is the only thing I'm not in short supply. I'd wish I had more room for clocks and more money...;)

    Aitor
     
  26. new2clocks

    new2clocks Registered User
    NAWCC Member Sponsor Donor

    Apr 25, 2005
    736
    5
    18
    Pennsylvania
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Re: Update: Case restored

    Nice work! Congrats and enjoy!

    Regards.
     
  27. P.Hageman

    P.Hageman Registered User

    Jul 20, 2014
    434
    3
    18
    The Netherlands
    Country Flag:
    Re: Update: Case restored

    Wow, that looks greath! What a perfect job has been done on this clock. This clock has found the right owner, congrats!!
     
  28. ballistarius

    ballistarius Registered User

    Oct 26, 2009
    704
    2
    18
    Male
    Architect
    Bilbao, Basque Country
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Many thanks, folks!:cool:
    This time, except for nailing the embossed brass bands, my only task has been to pay the bills!:rolleyes:

    Aitor
     
Loading...
Similar Threads - Ketterer Biedermeier twin Forum Date
Biedermeier 30 day or 60 day? Your Newest Clock Acquisition Apr 1, 2017
My new Late Biedermeier just arrived !!! Your Newest Clock Acquisition Feb 18, 2015
Diamond twin-bell alarm clock Your Newest Clock Acquisition Oct 11, 2014
Meet Lester Biedermeier Your Newest Clock Acquisition Oct 12, 2013
Parker Twin Bell Alarm & S.T. Mini Column Your Newest Clock Acquisition Aug 20, 2011

Share This Page