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Kern Standard 54 problems

orso

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Jun 9, 2013
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This clock was missing the suspension spring and the bottom block. I bought a complete 11B suspension according with Horolovar guide; there was no way to make it keep time; it was running very fast; the best I could get was 8 bits in 42". Thinned the spring was able to get 8 BPM, but this time it was running very slow. Changed again the suspension spring with an original Horolovar 0.036", the one it is running now; have 8 bit in 58" but it still loses 4 min in an hour. The tension washer for the min. hand looks fine, but maybe I misjudge it's strength. Any help?
Thanks,
Andrea.
 

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KurtinSA

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Can't really help much as the videos don't play for me. Hard to understand that if you have 8 beats in about 58 seconds, you would be losing 4 minutes per hour...you should be running fast. Not sure about your concern for the tension washer. Do you think it is too strong and it makes moving the minute hand with your finger very difficult? The tension washer is just a clutch mechanism that holds the cannon pinion tight enough so that the hand doesn't fall on its own but not too tight that the minute hand can't be moved to reset the time. In reality, if the cannon pinion were locked solid to the center arbor of the clock, the clock should still function but you just wouldn't be able to adjust the hands.

Kurt
 

Wayne A

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So its actually running fast but hands indicate its slow. Just about only one way for this to happen, tension clutch slipping. Don't have an example of that Kern, but heres another Kern for reference that I think the motion works and tension spring have the same layout.

Wayne

20191205_144905.jpg
 

orso

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Thanks, Kurt and Wayne. Wayne, can you confirm there are two washers there convex side facing?
Kurt, that is my puzzle: clock running fast and hands moving slow :-(
 

KurtinSA

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Without seeing more of the clock, it's a little hard to grasp. If you have 8 beats in 58 seconds, the clock has to be running fast. That suggests that the minute hand is slipping on the end of the cannon pinion. I think, not seeing the clock, that then outboard end of the cannon pinion is round and the hand slips over that, followed by the cross taper pin. The hand could be slipping on that. Other clocks, like Schatz clocks, have a square end on the cannon pinion which engages the square hub of the minute hand...it can't slip at all.

Kurt
 

KurtinSA

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Actually it seems to be tied to the name of the suspension unit. There's Kern Standard 50, Standard 54, Miniature 54 as well as 56-58. Then they have Kern Midget 58 and 61. So, it would seem that this is not a mini. My guess it is like plate #1404 or 1405 in the repair guide.

Kurt
 

Wayne A

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Thanks, Kurt and Wayne. Wayne, can you confirm there are two washers there convex side facing?
Kurt, that is my puzzle: clock running fast and hands moving slow :-(
There is a spring and a flat washer. Spring first that rests on step then the flat.

Wayne

Close up.jpg
 

orso

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Thanks, Wayne and Kurtin. I have the same washers. I'll post a close pic of the minute cannon. Yes it is round.
 

orso

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Thanks, Wayne and Kurtin. I have the same washers. I'll post a close pic of the minute cannon. Yes it is round.
Added two pics of the cannon and minute hand;
here it is a link to my YouTube short movie:

Thanks again for you attention; I'm still puzzled.

IMG_20221113_080651_973.jpg IMG_20221113_080724_376.jpg
 

KurtinSA

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The video isn't really long enough to see what's going on...it probably just confirms your 8 beats in 58 seconds. I can't square your circle...it's running fast per the beat count but yet the minute hand shows 4 minutes slow per hour which is 4 seconds per minute. Those two facts just can't exist together. Something is wrong somewhere...

Kurt
 

orso

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The video isn't really long enough to see what's going on...it probably just confirms your 8 beats in 58 seconds. I can't square your circle...it's running fast per the beat count but yet the minute hand shows 4 minutes slow per hour which is 4 seconds per minute. Those two facts just can't exist together. Something is wrong somewhere...

Kurt
Thanks again, Kurt. I'm going to work on the minute cannon and spring washer. At this point I only see the problem is there.
 

KurtinSA

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So how does the clock run without the hands and motion works? I guess that's kind of a dumb question as you can't really tell what the time is. Is there a way to use some kind of point that doesn't connect to the cannon pinion that would give you a sense of what the time is.

Kurt
 

orso

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So how does the clock run without the hands and motion works? I guess that's kind of a dumb question as you can't really tell what the time is. Is there a way to use some kind of point that doesn't connect to the cannon pinion that would give you a sense of what the time is.

Kurt
Hello and thank , Kurt.
Here there is an update: I added a very thin brass washer to the minute arbore to tighten a bit the minute hand; much better now but really fast with the 0.036" suspension (not better than 8 bit in 58 second). I assume the culprit is the spring washer slipping; hope to find a better one or make one. As far as the fast bit I can only think about a wrong pendulum since the suspension is per book. I could either try to thin a new suspension or try to add small lead shots in the ball caps. What do you think?
Cheers,
Andrea
 

Wayne A

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Hello and thank , Kurt.
Here there is an update: I added a very thin brass washer to the minute arbore to tighten a bit the minute hand; much better now but really fast with the 0.036" suspension (not better than 8 bit in 58 second). I assume the culprit is the spring washer slipping; hope to find a better one or make one. As far as the fast bit I can only think about a wrong pendulum since the suspension is per book. I could either try to thin a new suspension or try to add small lead shots in the ball caps. What do you think?
Cheers,
Andrea
Sometimes you can just put more bend into the spring.

Have a pendulum that someone had removed the original weights and just put in a few buckshot so it ran on the spring they had. When I put the guides horolovar spring on it was way off. I made some full size weights out of fishing sinkers and it then worked on listed spring. Another down side of loose shot is it can move and it takes very little movement to change the rate for example just stopping it to adjust could change the rate.

Wayne
 

orso

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Sometimes you can just put more bend into the spring.

Have a pendulum that someone had removed the original weights and just put in a few buckshot so it ran on the spring they had. When I put the guides horolovar spring on it was way off. I made some full size weights out of fishing sinkers and it then worked on listed spring. Another down side of loose shot is it can move and it takes very little movement to change the rate for example just stopping it to adjust could change the rate.

Wayne
Thanks, Wayne. Yes, the shots were meant to find a working weight then make a final one. On the other hand shots, supposed to be all the same allow a better balance of the four balls. Thanks a lot; never done this and you confirm it might work.
 

KurtinSA

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What does your pendulum weigh? I have a couple of plate 1404 Kerns and my pendulums weight 9.5 to 10 oz.

Kurt
 

orso

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What does your pendulum weigh? I have a couple of plate 1404 Kerns and my pendulums weight 9.5 to 10 oz.

Kurt woyld work
Hello,
This pendulum is exactly the same you have : 9.95 oz. I was able to add 3 oz; the best I could go was 8 bits in 48 sec. Could add a bit more, but at this point I think the problem is the suspension thickness. The plate is 1405A with locking mechanism. Maybe a 0.035" would work.
Thanks again
 

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