Kern & Sohne Anniversary Clock Id?

[legosnell]

Just picked up my first 400 day Anniversary Clock. Seller said it was in good shape but wouldn't wind up. $15 + $15 shipping. So I thought might be a good one to learn with. The face says Kern and Made In Germany. The plate says K.U.S. S I V. I learned that the "SIV" is the movement reference number. I found that the mainspring seems to be fine, just wound up extremely tight. I don't know about the suspension spring but seems somewhat bent up, maybe not. If I were to order a new suspension spring would I order it by the Movement Reference Number "SIV" and manufacturer Kern? Also about when was this clock built? The movement size is 93mm x 44mm x 1.7mm. Is this a 1950s clock? One other thing, what's a good method of restoring the shine to the brass base which does have some wear and tear.

Appreciate any advice for this dazed and confused 68 year old newbee
Larry Earl Gosnell

 

[KurtinSA]

Could you remove the dome and take a good full picture of the back plate?

Thanks...Kurt

 

[legosnell]

Could you remove the dome and take a good full picture of the back plate?

Thanks...Kurt

Yes sir, I sure can and will in a few. Within an hour.

 

[KurtinSA]

OK, that helps! Looks like it's plate 1340D in the repair guide. I would think that the suspension spring is basically toast. I suppose in a pinch, one could carefully unscrew the top and bottom blocks and swap ends, then rotate the fork around to the other end, same distance from the top block. If the kink in the spring were towards the pendulum it might still work, but you never know. Probably best to order a replacement spring...they typically come in a package of three from the Horolovar Store in Ohio. The owner recently passed away, so not sure what their availability is right now. The thickness is 0.0036".

As for cleaning up, the large brass sections can be polished by hand...at least that's what I do...I don't have a buffing wheel set up. I use a metal polish made by Blue Magic...simichrome is another common paste polish. I have a couple of microfiber cloths that I use to polish and then wipe clean. Might take some elbow grease. If the factory lacquer is stubborn, you might need some kind of solvent like acetone to cut it...I like to use a gel-based paint stripper that I brush on so that I can control where it goes, especially not into the holes in the brass base...liquids in there can create havoc.

As for a date, the repair guide suggests the early 1960s.

Kurt

 

[Schatznut]

"Basically toast" is exactly the term that came to my mind when reviewing the photos of the suspension spring. You can rebuild it easily, with a three-pack of the correct size Horolovar suspension wires. Just trace the original onto a piece of paper or light cardboard, preserving the relationship between the top block, fork and bottom block. Candidly, I would not try to make the brass brighter - this clock is in better shape than 90% of those I've worked on.

 

[legosnell]

So what should I order? I measured the suspension spring including the broken piece and it's about 5.0" the thickness is 0.0030" to 0.0035"
Is this the right one?

3 Pack Springs - 5-3/8" Long

Horolovar .0035" - .089mm thick 3 pack single strength temperature compensating 400 day clock pendulum suspension springs. 3 springs per package. Each spring is 5-3/8”long. Horolovar torsion anniversary clock suspension springs are available in 24 different strengths.

These springs are the correct thickness to regulate Koma standard, Herr standard 53, and Henn standard 51 and 52 (wide plate) movements.

note: doesn't mention KERN & SOHNE

 

[KurtinSA]

No, the Horolovar store is not going to say "Kern" or "Schatz" as one size can go with many different clocks. The side does mention "Kern standard" which is what you have...it's Kern & Sohne but that's really the same thing. I mentioned above that the repair guide says 0.0036"...that's what I'd order. The 5-3/8 size is good...you'll need to use a pair of scissors to cut off the excess once you lay the old one next to a new one. If you had an outside micrometer like this:

Starrett T232XRL Outside Micrometer, Ratchet Stop, Lock Nut, Carbide Faces, 0-0.5" Range, 0.0001" Graduation, +/-0.00005" Accuracy: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific

you'd be able to more accurately measure the thickness of the old spring. As I said, I think the 0.0036" is what you need. Sometimes, you might need something a little thicker which can then be thinned down as needed. But more than likely, 0.0036" will do the job.

Kurt

 

[legosnell]

horolovar@gmail.com is coming back as an invalid email

 

[KurtinSA]

Probably they've blocked emails for the moment. The owner of the store passed away a number of months ago, so they may be in a hold mode and not really taking any orders. You could try the phone and see if there's someone you could talk to. Maybe there's an outgoing message about their situation. There are other places, even in the US, where you could order and they might have a backlog of the correct spring.

Kurt

 

[legosnell]

Probably they've blocked emails for the moment. The owner of the store passed away a number of months ago, so they may be in a hold mode and not really taking any orders. You could try the phone and see if there's someone you could talk to. Maybe there's an outgoing message about their situation. There are other places, even in the US, where you could order and they might have a backlog of the correct spring.

Kurt

Maybe timesavers or ebay

 

[KurtinSA]

It's important that you get Horolovar springs, packaged similar to what you see on their website and it states that on the package. From Timesavers catalog, it does appear that they have 400-day springs with the right packaging. Looks like it is part no. 10488 for "intermediate sizes" which gets you a 0.0036" set.

Kurt

 

[legosnell]

Maybe this one: 400 Day / Anniversary Clock .0036 Suspension Spring / Wire - Horolovar | eBay

 

[legosnell]

It's important that you get Horolovar springs, packaged similar to what you see on their website and it states that on the package. From Timesavers catalog, it does appear that they have 400-day springs with the right packaging. Looks like it is part no. 10488 for "intermediate sizes" which gets you a 0.0036" set.

Kurt

I'll look at timesavers, Thanks for all the help, Kurt

 

[legosnell]

It's important that you get Horolovar springs, packaged similar to what you see on their website and it states that on the package. From Timesavers catalog, it does appear that they have 400-day springs with the right packaging. Looks like it is part no. 10488 for "intermediate sizes" which gets you a 0.0036" set.

Kurt

Yes, looks good, I've got some other stuff in my cart at timesavers so I'll just add this item to the rest and place the order. Great! Appreciate it Kurt.

 

[KurtinSA]

The ebay purchase looks OK, but it is, afterall, ebay...or evilbay or fleabay...markup is over double. I found them on Amazon but the price is 4x the cost at the Horolovar store. Lots of markup there.

Kurt

 

[MuseChaser]

I've ordered a bunch of Horolovar springs from Timesavers recently with no problem, and they're easy to reach by phone too if you have any questions..


.0036" Horolovar Spring 3-pack

 

[Bod]

No, the Horolovar store is not going to say "Kern" or "Schatz" as one size can go with many different clocks. The side does mention "Kern standard" which is what you have...it's Kern & Sohne but that's really the same thing. I mentioned above that the repair guide says 0.0036"...that's what I'd order. The 5-3/8 size is good...you'll need to use a pair of scissors to cut off the excess once you lay the old one next to a new one. If you had an outside micrometer like this:

Starrett T232XRL Outside Micrometer, Ratchet Stop, Lock Nut, Carbide Faces, 0-0.5" Range, 0.0001" Graduation, +/-0.00005" Accuracy: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific

you'd be able to more accurately measure the thickness of the old spring. As I said, I think the 0.0036" is what you need. Sometimes, you might need something a little thicker which can then be thinned down as needed. But more than likely, 0.0036" will do the job.

Kurt

Be aware that the old spring may not be a Horolovar, in which case it may/will measure different to the Horolovar recommended size.

Bod

 

[legosnell]

Be aware that the old spring may not be a Horolovar, in which case it may/will measure different to the Horolovar recommended size.

Bod

Yes and I wonder about cutting the new spring to the proper length and if I need to purchase the Horolovar Book $32 + where you lay your spring down on the page in the book and cut to length

 

[MuseChaser]

The Terwilliger book (that's the one you're referring to) is a great resource, and pays for itself the first time it assists you in repairing or maintaining your clock The bad news is that it exponentially increases your interest in these clocks, at least it did for me. In the few months since ordering the book, I've gone from owning a single Kern to about twenty torsion clocks, all of which I've been able to renovate with the help of that book and some kind folks here on the forum.

Having said that, it's certainly possible to build a suspension unit without the templates in the book, but it will take much more trial and error. You could measure the distance from the hole in the saddle (where the pin screw for the top block attaches) to the location of the bottom of the hook on the pendulum when the pendulum is held or propped up JUST above the base of the clock, and that would give you a starting point for spring length. It will still, in all likelihood, be a bit too long, but you can always nibble off small bits at a time until the pendulum suspends freely. You can't add MORE spring, so much better to start too long. You'll need to remove the suspension unit and the bottom block each time you trim a tiny bit of spring off, then test again. I usually have to do that at least once even with the book's templates, as I tend to be overly cautious about cutting the spring too short.

Also, the distance between the fork and the top block is very critical, and the templates really just provide a starting point. Generally, they're pretty accurate, but each clock is different...if the anchor pin is bent slightly forward or backward, that can change where the fork is the happiest. Again, small changes and trial and errror. Gauging the amount of pendulum overswing in relation to total rotation will tell you if the fork is mounted in the best spot, along with the how easily the fork and anchor "flutter" when in the center of the travel. In my (still limited compared to many here) experience, when a clock is setup for a good ratio between power (overswing) and total rotation, the fork/anchor will flutter a few times when the anchor pin is vertical, the fork is pointing straight forward (assuming the pin is not bent), AND the minute hand is pressed to manually advance it. It should never flutter on its own.

Hope that adds a bit of help. Personally? Just get the book. Completely worth it.

 

[legosnell]

The Terwilliger book (that's the one you're referring to) is a great resource, and pays for itself the first time it assists you in repairing or maintaining your clock The bad news is that it exponentially increases your interest in these clocks, at least it did for me. In the few months since ordering the book, I've gone from owning a single Kern to about twenty torsion clocks, all of which I've been able to renovate with the help of that book and some kind folks here on the forum.

Having said that, it's certainly possible to build a suspension unit without the templates in the book, but it will take much more trial and error. You could measure the distance from the hole in the saddle (where the pin screw for the top block attaches) to the location of the bottom of the hook on the pendulum when the pendulum is held or propped up JUST above the base of the clock, and that would give you a starting point for spring length. It will still, in all likelihood, be a bit too long, but you can always nibble off small bits at a time until the pendulum suspends freely. You can't add MORE spring, so much better to start too long. You'll need to remove the suspension unit and the bottom block each time you trim a tiny bit of spring off, then test again. I usually have to do that at least once even with the book's templates, as I tend to be overly cautious about cutting the spring too short.

Also, the distance between the fork and the top block is very critical, and the templates really just provide a starting point. Generally, they're pretty accurate, but each clock is different...if the anchor pin is bent slightly forward or backward, that can change where the fork is the happiest. Again, small changes and trial and errror. Gauging the amount of pendulum overswing in relation to total rotation will tell you if the fork is mounted in the best spot, along with the how easily the fork and anchor "flutter" when in the center of the travel. In my (still limited compared to many here) experience, when a clock is setup for a good ratio between power (overswing) and total rotation, the fork/anchor will flutter a few times when the anchor pin is vertical, the fork is pointing straight forward (assuming the pin is not bent), AND the minute hand is pressed to manually advance it. It should never flutter on its own.

Hope that adds a bit of help. Personally? Just get the book. Completely worth it.

Great information and I'll for sure reference back to your comments here when attempting to set this clock up with a new suspension spring and get it up and running. On the book, is the 10th Edition Green book the latest?

 

[MuseChaser]

Great information and I'll for sure reference back to your comments here when attempting to set this clock up with a new suspension spring and get it up and running. On the book, is the 10th Edition Green book the latest?

I think so. Got mine here...

Terwilliger at Timesavers

 

[legosnell]

I think so. Got mine here...

Terwilliger at Timesavers

good price compared to everywhere else. Thanks

 

[KurtinSA]

For the one clock you're talking about, do you have an intact suspension spring, albeit bent a little? You can certainly use that as a guide of how long to cut...as mentioned, cut a little long for later trimming. You can also adjust the length by loosening one of the blocks and slide it in/out of the block as needed...to a small degree.

Kurt

 

[legosnell]

For the one clock you're talking about, do you have an intact suspension spring, albeit bent a little? You can certainly use that as a guide of how long to cut...as mentioned, cut a little long for later trimming. You can also adjust the length by loosening one of the blocks and slide it in/out of the block as needed...to a small degree.

Kurt

I have a complete spring including a small piece that broke off on the end. I measured the whole thing including the small broken off piece at 5". It seems to be a flat wire and not rounded. It was all together as one piece but I inadvertently broke it somehow when I was shuffling things around on my desktop, where I had the spring assembly sitting.