Kern and Sohne Battery Powered Clock

gspotjulian

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I have been gifted a Kern & Sohne clock. I believe it to be an anniversary clock. Other than the marking on the back plate KS there are no other visible markings. Can any of you kind knowledgeable members tell me anything about it such as age, history, etc.
I believe it is a battery powered clock, torsion type as there is no key or winding mechanism visible. Underneath the base is what I believe to be two poles which hold a battery. Apart from a little corrosion around the base under the "battery" area, everything seems to be there and in visibly good condition. I need also to know what battery fits this clock. On another thread someone said AA batteries but a single battery is too small and in series too big. AAA batteries give the same result. Distance pole to pole is 72.5mm. IMG_7917.JPG IMG_7917.JPG IMG_7919.JPG IMG_7920.JPG IMG_7922.JPG IMG_7923.JPG IMG_7924.JPG
On the front face is marked Kern and at the bottom of the face is printed "Foreign" which again I believe it to assist with dating the clock.
there is some age related wear to the base decor, yellowing and tiny chips here and there but generally in good condition. It came with the glass dome also.
Thank you in advance and if you need further information please ask. Photographs attached.
 

KurtinSA

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One thing I notice in your clock is that the fork is angled down and just barely surrounds the anchor pin. It needs to be level. Plus, your anchor pin is differently shaped than the one in my clock...you can see images in the other thread.

As for the battery, I looked under my base. Sorry to say, but my battery carrier appears to have been replaced...can't be certain but it looks like it. As you can see from the picture, the plastic retainer is glued in place and holds two AA batteries.

Kurt

PaicoBattery.jpg
 

Wayne A

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Interesting variation of a kick wind clock. Had not seen a weight driven 400 day style clock before. Have a couple of kick wind clocks running but there different than this. Nice clock!
 
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gspotjulian

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One thing I notice in your clock is that the fork is angled down and just barely surrounds the anchor pin. It needs to be level. Plus, your anchor pin is differently shaped than the one in my clock...you can see images in the other thread.

As for the battery, I looked under my base. Sorry to say, but my battery carrier appears to have been replaced...can't be certain but it looks like it. As you can see from the picture, the plastic retainer is glued in place and holds two AA batteries.

Kurt

View attachment 662592
Yes it looks like it has been modified and a modern battery holder fitted.
I'm not sure about the fork being angled down or in what position it should be in. I want to get it going if I can and then assess what needs to be done. Thanks for replying.
 

gspotjulian

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Interesting variation of a kick wind clock. Had not seen a weight driven 400 day style clock before. Have a couple of kick wind clocks running but there different than this. Nice clock!
Thanks for your reply.
 

etmb61

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The original battery size for these is 2R10, which is 3VDC. That leads me to think this was a European market clock. I got my Schatz Electric from a seller in the UK. It uses the same battery.

I never noticed before but my Schatz Electric is marked "Foreign" on the dial as well.
foreign.jpg

Eric
 
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Wayne A

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I've never heard of these clocks. I'd like to get one and just watch it work!
I try to buy them when I see them. Apparently they were popular in Europe, don't see many in the states.

Wayne
 

Bod

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Being marked "Foreign" leads me to think is was made in Germany, 1945-1955, for the English market.
At that time goods made in Germany or Japan, would not have been purchased, by the general public.

Bod
 

gspotjulian

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The original battery size for these is 2R10, which is 3VDC. That leads me to think this was a European market clock. I got my Schatz Electric from a seller in the UK. It uses the same battery.

I never noticed before but my Schatz Electric is marked "Foreign" on the dial as well.
View attachment 662651

Eric
Hi Eric,
Would you be kind enough to post a photo of the battery here for me as google is showing a watch battery type battery with the numbers you have posted. Thanks Julian
 

KurtinSA

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Hmmm...I googled "battery 2R10" (use quotes) and plenty of links are shown...Amazon for sure. The brand Camelion seems to be the most frequent image.

Kurt
 

Ken M

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Good luck finding one. Amazon is out and no idea when they'll be back. Even a European company was out of stock.
 

gspotjulian

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Thanks Eric, I need to do some research to find one. Amazon is out of stock and some of the sites on google state they have them but when you follow it up are mysteriously out of stock, Julian
No, cannot find anything that is available anywhere, if anyone can find a battery that is available to buy, please let me know. Thanks - Julian
 

etmb61

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You could probably use a CR123A 3VDC photo battery with a simple adapter. Not sure how long it would run but the battery is cheap and readily available. They measure 17mm x 34.5mm, so a simple tube to fit the CR123A and battery holder on the clock with an extenstion for one of the contacts would do the trick.

Eric
 

KurtinSA

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I'm not too good with my electricity, but how does your battery setup work with only one wire going to the base? Don't you need a power return or is the return through the metal of the clock?

Kurt
 

gspotjulian

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You could probably use a CR123A 3VDC photo battery with a simple adapter. Not sure how long it would run but the battery is cheap and readily available. They measure 17mm x 34.5mm, so a simple tube to fit the CR123A and battery holder on the clock with an extenstion for one of the contacts would do the trick.

Eric
I'd thought of modifying the battery holder, but before I do I want to see if there is an original sized battery available.
I'm not too good with electricity also but I guess anything with 3VDC correctly wired should work?
 

gspotjulian

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I'm not too good with my electricity, but how does your battery setup work with only one wire going to the base? Don't you need a power return or is the return through the metal of the clock?

Kurt
Hi Kurt, the body is the other conductor. Julian
 

gspotjulian

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Good luck finding one. Amazon is out and no idea when they'll be back. Even a European company was out of stock.
I agree Ken, there is something on Alibaba but I'm thinking it might be a dead end as anything obscure and Alibaba has it! Julian
 

gspotjulian

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Hi Guy's,
It appears that the original batteries are no longer available as far as I can see, so again, I need your expertise. What if I fit a 3v watch battery CR2032 and a single button battery holder underneath the clock where the old battery used to be fitted and connect the earth to the body of the existing battery earth and the positive to the yellow wire that runs from the positive side of the battery holder see 6th pic above for yellow wire and the battery and holder attached to this post? Battery Holder.jpg Battery.PNG
 

gspotjulian

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Am I missing something? If you are willing to modify, two batteries in series = 3v. AA,C,D are all 1.5v.
No, you are not missing anything, what I wanted to do is stay with tradition and use original replacement batteries if they were available. Having searched, although there are a lot of links for the battery, alas, there are none unless you know better?
Therefore, what I wanted to do as a secondary repair is fit a battery that is the smallest, albeit they are under the base, I wanted to keep the battery as small as possible as I think the aa, aaa, C,D would require two to make the 3 Volts which means that quite a bulky battery holder has to be attached to the base whereas my option above makes it more compact if it works. Julian
 

Wayne A

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Those little button battery's lack the current capacity to operate a solenoid. I'd go with a rechargeable A123 3.3v battery. Have A123's that are 12yr old and work fine, I use them in another hobby. You would need a proper charger for them though. They come in several sizes but this ONE is close to the original.

Wayne
 

KurtinSA

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The A123 is almost 10mm shorter than the OEM battery...would require some kind of "mod" to make up the gap and be electrically sound.

Kurt
 

Wayne A

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Yep would take something to bridge the gap but that would be easy enough.

Thinking how these clocks fail position on a discharged battery is typically a short, probobably would be a good idea to stick with dry cell based power like two AA/AAA.
 

gspotjulian

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The A123 is almost 10mm shorter than the OEM battery...would require some kind of "mod" to make up the gap and be electrically sound.

Kurt
So I would need to buy a twin aa battery holder like the one in the pic below, secure it to the base underneath the clock where the old battery used to be fitted and connect the earth of the replacement battery holder to the body of the existing battery earth terminal on the clock and connect the positive wire from the new replacement battery holder to the positive side of the existing battery holder terminal see 6th pic above? Can you confirm? Julian Battery holder 2.jpg
 

KurtinSA

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Julian -

That appears to be what was done to my clock. Except that the body of the clock was not used for the return on the circuit. As you can see in my picture above, the red and black leads were hooked to the two yellow wires that were already in the base. Upon further evaluation, one of the yellow wires that routes up through the inside of the column actually comes out and is secured under the thumb screw that holds the movement to the lintel...so in the end, they do use the "body" for a ground. I also now see in my photos that there is what appears to be a diode included. Way beyond my electrical knowledge. Here's a picture of that. You can see the lone yellow wire coming up and secured under the screw.

Kurt

PaicoLQtr.jpg
 

gspotjulian

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Julian -

That appears to be what was done to my clock. Except that the body of the clock was not used for the return on the circuit. As you can see in my picture above, the red and black leads were hooked to the two yellow wires that were already in the base. Upon further evaluation, one of the yellow wires that routes up through the inside of the column actually comes out and is secured under the thumb screw that holds the movement to the lintel...so in the end, they do use the "body" for a ground. I also now see in my photos that there is what appears to be a diode included. Way beyond my electrical knowledge. Here's a picture of that. You can see the lone yellow wire coming up and secured under the screw.

Kurt

View attachment 662790
Hi Kurt,
Thanks for the info the only difference on mine is the fitting of the diode which on yours shows one end soldered to the side plate as you look directly at the pic and the other end goes round by the screw that holds the yellow wire. How is that end of the diode attached? Julian
 

KurtinSA

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Julian -

Each lead of the diode has a ring terminal soldered to it. One terminal goes under the nut on the front plate...which connects to the yellow wire; and the other terminal is under the screw that is in the body of the stepper relay.

Kurt
 

gspotjulian

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Julian -

Each lead of the diode has a ring terminal soldered to it. One terminal goes under the nut on the front plate...which connects to the yellow wire; and the other terminal is under the screw that is in the body of the stepper relay.

Kurt
Hi Kurt,
Something is telling me I'm going a step too far. I have looked at the base of both your clock and mine. Your original battery terminals are missing whereas mine are still present. Maybe yours has had some sort of modification due to an electrical fault hence the fitting of the diode.
At the end of the day, the original battery was 3 volts as I understand it so if I put 3 volts into the original circuit via the original battery terminals I am not going to damage anything. at least I can see if it works or not and if necessary do further investigation.
Thanks for all your help and I'll let you know how I get on. Julian
 

etmb61

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The diode was most likely added to cure the arcing problem at the solenoid contacts.
 
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gspotjulian

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The diode was most likely added to cure the arcing problem at the solenoid contacts.
Exactly, because it is only connected like you would an earth wire except it has a one way diode maybe to stop the short returning back along the wire. Julian
 

Wayne A

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The diode should be wired across the solenoid coil to provide a path for the collapsing magnetic field energy when the contacts open. This is to prevent damaging contact arcing. Clocks effective wiring should be something like the picture.

20201027_133551.jpg
 

Wayne A

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I've just used 1N4005 or 1N4007 diode's, there small enough to hide in tight spots and cheap.

Wayne
 

KurtinSA

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Hmmm...since I don't really understand these things, it makes me wonder if my diode is installed correctly. Wayne, can you look at my picture above and make sense of it? I suppose it's right as I didn't notice any issues...who knows.

I guess it might look right. The banded side of the diode is towards power while the other side of the diode is mounted to the body of the relay/solenoid which I guess is ground.

Thanks...Kurt
 

Wayne A

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Hmmm...since I don't really understand these things, it makes me wonder if my diode is installed correctly. Wayne, can you look at my picture above and make sense of it? I suppose it's right as I didn't notice any issues...who knows.

I guess it might look right. The banded side of the diode is towards power while the other side of the diode is mounted to the body of the relay/solenoid which I guess is ground.

Thanks...Kurt
Hard to go by just the picture, just can't see it all. Need to be able to trace the power paths out back to the battery. Battery polarity don't matter on these clocks until you add a diode, then if the battery is reversed it would conduct through the diode and discharge the battery or possibly smoke the diode.

Wayne
 

Wayne A

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So the yellow wire is B+ and the green wire goes directly to the solenoid? If so its correct. The clocks I've had in hand all used the solenoid arm as the "kick" part of the contact and the arm is electrically insulated from the clock body.
 

KurtinSA

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I have no idea where the green wire goes. It coils up and goes down in front of the solenoid behind the front plate. But it does appear to be connected to the yellow wire from the battery.

Kurt
 

gspotjulian

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I have no idea where the green wire goes. It coils up and goes down in front of the solenoid behind the front plate. But it does appear to be connected to the yellow wire from the battery.

Kurt
It's a shame someone doesn't have a photo to upload.
 

etmb61

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If the goal is to get the clock running, why worry about the diode? It's a non-factory modification that someone thought it needed. If you find arcing a problem once the clock is running you should explore solutions but until then it's a wasted effort.

Just a thought.

Eric
 
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etmb61

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I have no idea where the green wire goes. It coils up and goes down in front of the solenoid behind the front plate. But it does appear to be connected to the yellow wire from the battery.

Kurt
Kurt,

Both the green and red wires connect to the solenoid coil.

Eric
 

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