K &O / Kundo Identification.

P

plantluvver

Hi, I just bought this clock, and would like to know a little more about her.

Sorry I cannot post a photo.The back plate states:

KIENINGER & OBERFELL
Made in Germany
no (0) jewels unadjusted

The bottom of the base is marked:

Kieninger and Oberfell
Made in Western Germany

I do not see any serial number, where would it be located?

The clock face and columns are painted mostly in black, with pink and red roses, along with a blue flower, and leaves. The paint does not appear to be brushed on, but applied with a sponge. The reason I say this is that the texture is bumpy like an orange peel, not linear strokes, as if hand painted. The hands are in an outline style, by this I mean that areas are cut out of them, so the hands appear to be outlined, with only the edges present.

I could try to give more details, but I don't know what is pertinent.

Also, the base is not entirely brass, but is in two parts, a flat brass plate, and a base that appears to be made of two metal plates, with some void space between them in places the upper surface is brass colored but it has a dull sheen.

Mary
 
P

plantluvver

Hi, I just bought this clock, and would like to know a little more about her.

Sorry I cannot post a photo.The back plate states:

KIENINGER & OBERFELL
Made in Germany
no (0) jewels unadjusted

The bottom of the base is marked:

Kieninger and Oberfell
Made in Western Germany

I do not see any serial number, where would it be located?

The clock face and columns are painted mostly in black, with pink and red roses, along with a blue flower, and leaves. The paint does not appear to be brushed on, but applied with a sponge. The reason I say this is that the texture is bumpy like an orange peel, not linear strokes, as if hand painted. The hands are in an outline style, by this I mean that areas are cut out of them, so the hands appear to be outlined, with only the edges present.

I could try to give more details, but I don't know what is pertinent.

Also, the base is not entirely brass, but is in two parts, a flat brass plate, and a base that appears to be made of two metal plates, with some void space between them in places the upper surface is brass colored but it has a dull sheen.

Mary
 
G

Grouse

I really wish you could show a picture. Without it I am afraid it will be impossible to identify for you. It sounds to me like you have a carriage clock, but even that does not simplify its identification.

Maybe someone could take a picture for you?
 
P

plantluvver

Grouse,

Oops, I guess I didn't say it is a torsion clock.
The base I was speaking of is where the two posts are attached for support, and where the dome rests.

Wouldn't it be possible to date by either the decoration style or the fabrication methods?

For example, I can see that the dial is formed by stamping.

In fact, it is similar to item 150032312180 on e-bay, with the following differences:

Black instead of white.
"Kundo" on face in block lettering, gold color, rather than script, red.
Two stripes, not three, at top and bottom of support posts.

Base is dull brassy color, not decorated.
Hands are similar to this, but less ornate.

From veiwing posts here, I know the back plate is important, but I don't know what I am looking for here. On mine the lettering is along the left hand side and rouns vertically, here it appears to be on the right hand side and horizontal.

I tried a search, but I couldn't find a way to date my clock on the web.

I also need to find a key for it, and learn to set it up.

I will check e-bay, perhaps I will find my exact clock.

Mary
 
P

plantluvver

My clock's hands are the same style as item 280028048866. However, the other style differences occur in this clock also.

Mary
 
G

Grouse

In fact, it is similar to item 150032312180 on e-bay, with the following differences:
This is Plate 1377 c1951 Standard 4-Ball pendulum, 8 beats per min, .0032" S-Sp
 
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Andy Krietzer

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Feb 21, 2001
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Mary,
Like they say, a picture's worth a thousand words. :biggrin:
The date shown in the book is approximately when they started making this particular movement. Ones like you show the ebay numbers for could date into the 1970s. The roses are decals. They didn't put serial numbers on the later ones, and only Schatz (and one Henn I have seen) has a manufacture date on them. There are some changes they made over the years that may help get a closer date, if the movement is narrow or wide, if the guard is plastic or metal, etc. Levelling feet were added later, and other little details. I don't think it really effects the value much on this clock if it was made in 1951 or 1971.

Andy
 

John Hubby

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Mary, your clock sounds like a standard size Kundo made sometime between 1952 and 1976. Kundo didn't put serial numbers or any other dating identification on their clocks after WW2. However, there are other characteristics that may allow us to date your clock.

Does your clock have a suspension guard? That's a piece that fits over the suspension spring to protect it from damage.

If you have a suspension guard, is it metal or clear plastic? If it is plastic, is it screwed to the back plate or does it just clip onto three holes in the back plate?

If you don't have a suspension guard, are there three screws or screw holes, two just under the pallet inspection holes and one down to the right of the winding arbor? Or are there three slots in those same positions?

With that info we should be able to get the date within +/- 4 or 5 years. Regarding key size, the Kundo standard clocks use a size 9 key.

John Hubby
 
P

plantluvver

There are leveling feet (don't all torsion clocks need these?)

There is no suspension guard.

Are the pallet inspection holes the two larger sized holes?

Under these there are "D" shaped holes, the curve facing toward the centerline. There are no holes directly to the right of the winding arbor.

Lower than the winding arbor there are a total of three holes:

A "D" placed on the left hand side about 1/4 inch from the plate's edge. A "D" on the left hand side, about 1/2 inch from the plate's lower edge. A circular hole on the vertical centerline just above the higher "D."

I am calling a clock shop today, to see if they can supply a key.

Thanks everyone,

Mary
 

John Hubby

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Mary, based on the info you have provided, your clock has back plate No. 1380. This is for a full-size standard Kundo with narrow back plates. The Horolovar Repair Guide shows that one having been made in 1976, with a plastic suspension guard that snaps into place. I don't know when the first such guard was used, but we do know they continued using them until Kundo stopped making mechanical 400-Day clocks about 1981. With all that in view, my best guess is your clock was made in the late 1970's.

Good luck with finding your key.

John Hubby
 
P

plantluvver

Does the suspension guard serve any real function? Would you replace it? (Assuming they are available?)

Mary
 

oldticker

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Jan 15, 2005
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All it does is protect the suspension from getting touched or damaged.
There are many around without them and it has a locking system on the middle plate anyway so it's up to you but not sure if they are available.

Are the D shaped guard holes offset or in line horozontally?
If the two bottom ones are offset then you have the larger Standard clock as Pastimes says. Takes a bigger key.
 
P

plantluvver

The bottom two D shaped holes do not seem to be offset horizontally, they seem to be directly in line with the inspection holes on each side. However they are offset vertically from one another the right being higher than the left.

However, the difference in height and the relation with a round hole on the center line (about 3/4 inch above the lower edge of the plate, make it appear that the right one is further than the left one from the centerline.)

The clock stands roughly 12" tall, measuring from the tabletop to the top of the highest finial.

Are all Kundo clocks approximately the same in regards to quality and construction of their movements? Or are some models and/or production dates either more reliable, or better machined?

Mary
 

DC Kelley

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Mar 16, 2006
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Are all Kundo clocks approximately the same in regards to quality and construction of their movements? Or are some models and/or production dates either more reliable, or better machined?
Mary
At a gross level they tend to be either "big" or "small" but have the same works and one of the two spring sizes mentioned. I really can not see a decease in manufactured quality in the anniversary clocks they made. The other models, noticeably the electric impulse ones they licenced from ATO, got progressively cheaper over the years. The machined brass base was refined and finally replaced with plastic. The gear train jewels were removed, and many minor changes in the assembly details changed. I don't see that so much in the anniversary clocks, although gearing moved about a bit and the plates got thinner with everyone else (this was due to an import tax change) over the years.

A bit more: Given the plastic guard it is probably from the early 70’s, near the end of the production run and right before the quartz movements supplanted it. If the guard has screws, rather than just snap in, it may be a few years younger. The leveling feet question was because having feet was an overnight sensation item added about 1951, hence people were asking to date things. Because the decorative details, paints, and pendulums constantly changed it is hard to date from these details. I have found that Simichrome polish works very well to restore and polish the brass of your base plate. You can get it where you obtained your suspension springs. Avoid rubbing the painted appliqué areas, as it is very fragile. From what I have read here you have a common larger Kundo and will need a #9 key (the #6 key fits the smaller units). I suggest you buy a three pack of .0032 and of .0023 springs – that way the next time you see one of these you will know you can probably fix it yourself for a buck. Buy the Horolovar book and you can read up on much of this and guide your next acquisition.
 
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