K&O 1381

Discussion in '400-Day & Atmos' started by Dave T, May 28, 2020.

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  1. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    Dec 8, 2011
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    I reluctantly agreed to look at this clock for a friend.
    So, I've had it completely apart, cleaned everything including the mainspring, installed a new .0023 spring and it still won't run!

    It will run for a few minutes until the momentum runs out and then zilch.

    What now? Besides throwing it out the back window!
     
  2. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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  3. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    When you move the anchor pin back and forth, do you get the sense that the escape wheel moves strongly? How do the locks and drops look? Any friction anywhere? Does the clock run without the motion works in place?

    Kurt
     
  4. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    Thanks Kurt, I'll try to answer your questions.
    When I start it manually, I can see the escape wheel releasing quickly with each beat. Looks good to me.
    Haven't looked at the locks and drops, and it's been a long time since I worked on an anniversary clock, so not sure how to check that. Reckon I'll have to get out my book and study it.
    No friction that I can see.
    Haven't tested with motion works removed, and not sure how I'd do that.
    Looks like I've got my homework cut out for me.
     
  5. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    Definitely check into setting the beat...that could be the problem. Typically, one shouldn't touch the eccentric to adjust the drops...that the peninsula at the top of the back plate. These things left the factory with the eccentric set right. Unless you see evidence of tampering or ham-fisting on the eccentric, it's probably OK. The top block mounts to the saddle...the whole saddle can swivel either way in order to set the beat.

    Kurt
     
  6. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    Yep, I know about setting the beat. And this one looks good in that regard. Got fairly equal overswing.
     
  7. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
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    Hi Dave,

    So you say this person who asked you to work on a small 400 day clock was a friend? All I can say is don't try adjusting the locks and drops without first trying to throw it out the back window to see if that works.

    Eric
     
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  8. Wayne A

    Wayne A Registered User
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    If it's not running theres no real over swing yet but you can still see the decaying over swing is equal within a few degrees as a sign the beat is right. Another primary reason they don't run is the fork is too tight on the pin, I try to set 1-2thousandths but some clocks need more due to binding at limits of rotation.
     
  9. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    I hate to throw it out today. We've had a lot of rain! And if that didn't fix it I'd have to clean it again. :)
    Wayne, I will take a look at the fork.
     
  10. tracerjack

    tracerjack Registered User
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    Did you do a free spin test of the wheels? Whenever I skip that part, I usually have to come back and do it.
     
  11. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    Yes, I've learned to do this on all clocks.
     
  12. tracerjack

    tracerjack Registered User
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    Whenever I have one that doesn't run after cleaning, I usually end up watching the fork and escape wheel with magnification for the entire time while it runs, which can be 10 to 20 minutes. Seems a lot longer than that when I'm doing it. It's boring to do, but exposes how the clock is working as its working. On one I discovered the tiniest burr on one pallet. On another I discovered a tiny burr on an escape wheel tooth. But sometimes, I am convinced that when the clock hasn't run in so long, minuscule messing alignments just need a period of adjustment. One nice thing about them is they have very few wheels, so the problem can't hide nearly as long as in a chimer.
     
  13. clksmyhobby

    clksmyhobby Registered User

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    Hi Dave,

    Just curious, how far do you wind the clock when you do your running test? I like to try minimum power (couple of turns max) first before I go to full wind-up. This is of course after I make sure the running train minus anchor runs freely. If I can get 48-72 hours at minimum power I go to full power and put it on the shelf.

    I have several of these models and have found these issues causing stoppage:
    1. Burs/rough edges inside the fork
    2. Not enough fork gap
    3. Wound less than 3 full turns - have never put a new main spring in one, but have considered it

    My most recent work is a Seth Thomas Bequest model, now running since March 11 this year.

    Mike
     
  14. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    Mike, I first try just a couple of winds also. But on this clock I wound it several times after it wouldn't run.
    Haven't yet looked at it further. But I see a lot of things here in this post to check.
    Hopefully get back at it tomorrow.
     
  15. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    Came home from church and decided to tackle that clock. After confirming proper beat, and made a slight adjustment to the fork.
    It's now running well with about 340° rotation.

    Only problem is, the hands don't turn! And the minute hand is square on the arbor but very loose.
     
  16. tracerjack

    tracerjack Registered User
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    Then I would assume you are missing a tension washer, either the football shaped one or a round domed one, or both.
     
  17. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    #17 Dave T, May 31, 2020
    Last edited: May 31, 2020
    Just took the dial off, and I have a flat washer on the front side of the plate. Nothing else. Is that right? And the cannon pinion is loose on the shaft.

    Does the washer provide friction for the cannon pinion? I'm sure I didn't lose it, and I don't have one.
     
  18. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    I think I'm in "bidness". I found a dial washer for an Elgin pocket watch. Put that baby on there and the hands are back on the job!
     
  19. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    Here's a picture of my Kundo 1381 that I took apart. Notice the small spring between the cannon pinion and the flat washer. That should provide the tension in order to keep the minute hand in position.

    Kurt

    KundoCanPin.jpg
     
  20. tracerjack

    tracerjack Registered User
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    Those little washers and springs too are easy to lose, especially if someone has oiled them. They’ll stick and then fall off when you aren’t looking.
     
  21. tracerjack

    tracerjack Registered User
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    Yes, the washer provides tension for the cannon pinion and in turn for the hands.
     
  22. clksmyhobby

    clksmyhobby Registered User

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    Good deal, Dave!

    My clocks with plate 1381 all run solidly once set up. Hope yours works as well.
     
  23. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    Thanks for the picture Kevin, I don't have that spring. But the Elgin dial washer works.

    Interesting observation though, my rotation has dropped from about 340° to 270°.
    I can live with that as long as it runs steady.

    I will say, comparatively, this is one of the easier clocks to work on. Except for the locking pendulum. It leaves very little room for attaching the suspension spring and getting it the right length at the same time.
     
  24. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    Well, this morning the hands still aren't turning. And the minute hand is still loose with no tension.
    Can anyone point me to a source for this tension spring?
    [​IMG]
     
  25. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    Dave -

    My cannon pinion with the spring actually has a relief on the backside for the spring to rest in. A few years ago, I was noticing that clocks were missing tension washers and I didn't have much to work with in my spares. I called Chris at The Horolovar Store and he said he could put together a small packet of various tension washers, from the round, football, etc. He included a few of the springs. I'd check with him and see what he can do, maybe put together a similar package. I don't seen tension "springs" in the Timesaver catalog.

    Kurt
     
  26. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    Thanks Kurt, I'll give them a call. I looked at their site first and don't see what I need there.

    In the meantime, I reckon I can try a few washers and test the tension on the hands. Maybe I can come up with some makeshift alternative.
     
  27. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    Looked at the backside of my cannon and it also has the recess for the spring to sit in. So, I made a spring, got the hand tension proper, as near as I can tell.
    Hands are moving, and now we'll see how much overswing I have. I expect it to be reduced.
     
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