Just a question, and just for the record, what is this dial called?

[Allan C. Purcell]

As you progress on your road to Collecting watches you will realize that Knowledge is Power and the only way to get it is to research and make mistakes......

Very true Jim, I have been doing it for 45 years, it was just, at the moment I started to look at American watches last summer.

 

[Bila]

It is not clear to me, if the 3rd number is a 4 that would make it a 18s Bun Special, which it is NOT, if it is a 2 as I suspect, it matches perfectly with the Illinois specs for a 16s Getty Hunter Made for Burlington.

I have played with the lighting and size on that image Jim, you are quite possibly right it could be a "2" and I am incorrect.

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

Collectors call it the Blue Book. you can find all kinds of prices in this link.

Jim, that was a good tip about the book, I was about to buy the five-book story of the Illinois Watch Company, but when I had a good look at it, it appears to be mostly about wristwatches. I noticed too, there are a lot of greedy people who want $250 for the 1984 copy, though some are as low as $30. I then found it is on a disc, for $13, and as I only what those serial numbers, I bought one.

Thanks again,

Allan.

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

Well, it did not take three weeks to get here in Germany, it took eleven days. So please bear with me if this is a little longer than usual.

I would like to start with the case, I had some trouble trying to get a clear picture of the odd bird on the cover. It is also my first question, I did think it was an Eagle, but not sure, does anyone know what this is? Could it be a Grifin?



No other problems with the dial cover, I would say "Art Deco".The number on this case is 13244657.



The case opened.



You all know how I like these special dials made for the "Burlington Watch Company".





The movement. 19 Ruby jewels. (Not too clear on the photograph). Serial number 2041129



Allan.

PS; I know someone will say the serial number should be saying it should be 2021129, which would describe this watch, it has to be a mistake,
but 2041129 is on the watch, which makes it a Bunn Special, which it is not.

 

[Ethan Lipsig]

Allan, a griffon (also spelled gryphon or griffin) is a mythological eagle-winged lion, such as the one on this 18k Tiffany hunter in my collection.

Your case's eagle looks 100% eagle to me, though highly stylized.

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

I have tried all afternoon to get a better picture, Ethan, I will try again in daylight. I believe now it is an Eagle. I like your Griffin, I have put it file.

Best wishes,

Allan.

 

[Kent]

... The number on this case is 13244657. ...

Hi Allan:

Its a very nice watch!

I think that the case serial number is 1324657, not is 13244657.

... The movement. 19 Ruby jewels. (Not too clear on the photograph). Serial number 2041129 ...

Also, I can make out the marking "19 Jewels" but I can't find the word "Ruby". This is significant because watch companies usually reserved the "Ruby Jewel" marking for higher grade movements.

... PS; I know someone will say the serial number should be saying it should be 2021129, which would describe this watch, it has to be a mistake,
but 2041129 is on the watch, which makes it a Bunn Special, which it is not.

Note; movement serial number 2,041,129 is obviously not a model 6, 18-size, open-face. 21-jewel Bunn Special movement. Obviously , there is an error in the records.

Serial number 2,021,129 is in a run (2,041,001-2,041,500) listed as 12-size movements, Yet Ed and I have the following serial numbers of 16-size Burlington Special movements in our data base that come very close to describing your watch; with the possible exception that they are lever-set:

2,021,195
2,021,301
2,021,496
2,021,686
2,021,736
2,021,813
2,021,870

Your watch appears to be pendant-set; is it? At any rate, this is another error in the records.

By the way 2,041,129 (just added) is the only watch listed in our data base in the range of 2,041,001-2,042,000. So, not only do you have a very nice watch, its an interesting one as well!

 

[4thdimension]

It is a gryphon. Too many legs to be an
eagle.-Cort

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

By the way, 2,041,129 (just added) is the only watch listed in our database in the range of 2,041,001-2,042,000. So, not only do you have a very nice watch, it's also interesting!

Thank you for this information Kent, It's a great help. You can see from the photograph that the watch is a 16s. So I would say a mistake by those who put the serial number on it.




This I think is a better photograph of the monster on the watch cover. (Could it be they had a Chinese engraver at the Illinois watch company)?




You are right about the case number.

Regards,

Allan.

PS; The stones in this photograph are taken through a glass cover, four of them are deep red, and the top left is I think white.

 

[Nathan Moore]

I would like to start with the case, I had some trouble trying to get a clear picture of the odd bird on the cover. It is also my first question, I did think it was an Eagle, but not sure, does anyone know what this is? Could it be a Grifin?

It is a dragon. This was advertised as the "Dragon Case" in promotional catalogs distributed by the Burlington Watch Company.

"This was one of the first exclusive designs of the Burlington line. This unique pattern jumped into public favor at once, and many of these beautiful cases have been sold. This is the sort of design that appeals to discriminating people who want something odd and fanciful."

Private Label Trade Names on American Pocket Watches: “Burlington Watch Co.” Part 44: The “Dragon Case” - Pocket Watch Database Blog

One of the more unusual case designs offered by the Burlington Watch Company featured a dragon engraved on the exterior with stylistic embellishments. Company catalogs describe the design as “an odd and fascinating design entirely at variance with anything else ever attempted in watch cases.”...

blog.pocketwatchdatabase.com

Burlington Watch Company Catalog (c.1911) | PWDB Digital Archive

Digitized publication archived by the Pocket Watch Database.

pocketwatchdatabase.com

 

[terry hall]

Also, I can make out the marking "19 Jewels" but I can't find the word "Ruby". This is significant because watch companies usually reserved the "Ruby Jewel" marking for higher grade movements.

Your watch appears to be pendant-set; is it? At any rate, this is another error in the records.

Kent is of course correct for the 'ruby' marking, reserved on the getty models for higher grades...

Also, i do not believe any getty movements were pendant set, only lever... i could be wrong though....

yes, the 'book' is wrong, and apparently Bill Meggers had not seen an example in this serial range.
but Kent and Ed have and recorded to their gianormous database...

 

[Nathan Moore]

The movement. 19 Ruby jewels. (Not too clear on the photograph). Serial number 2041129



Allan.

Another possibility is that the "4" and the "1" were accidentally transposed when marked. #2014129 correlates to a run of Grade 174 hunting movements made for the Burlington Watch Company - properly matching this watch.

We know that #2041063 (from the 2,041,001-2,041,300 run) is an 18-Size Bunn Special, consistent with the records. We also know that #2041109 was listed for sale in 2013 as an 18-Size Bunn Special, providing additional support to suggest the run is at least comprised of some 18-Size Bunn Special production.

I would be curious to learn if the serial numbers under the plates reflect the #2041129 or would match #2014129 instead.

Nonetheless, these kinds of watches are always intriguing.

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

Dear Mr. Moore,

Thank you yet again, though I do have a small problem. I wanted to put my watches on the database, so I filled in the card, but it would not accept it. It turns out I did that in 2019, which does not let me in either. Can you help?

Allan.

PS; Looking for more of these watches with a Dragon, I came across this piece by the POCKETWATCH GUY.

Burlington Grade 174 in Hunter Case - The Pocket Watch Guy

Burlington Grade 174 Produced in 1907. This size 16, 19 jewel movement is housed in an ornately engraved yellow gold fill Hunter case.

www.thepocketwatchguy.com

If you look at the serial number, you will notice at first that the second number looks like a nine, but I think it is the second punch over a 3.
What do you think?

Allan.

 

[Ethan Lipsig]

Perhaps because of your is-it-a-griffon inquiry, Allan, I spent some time yesterday cataloging all of the imagery on my pocket watch cases. I found lots of flowers, elk, dogs, and birds, but only one dragon. It's on a tiny (slightly smaller than a U.S. 25-cent coin), unsigned 18k ladies watch, about to eat a diamond-clad lizard.

 

[Kent]

... You can see from the photograph that the watch is a 16s. So I would say a mistake by those who put the serial number on it. ...

Allan:

I think that its more likely to be an error in the records. Otherwise, we'd probably have some listings for 18-size, open-face. 21-jewel Bunn Special movements in t he range of 2,041,001-2,041,300.

By the way, is it pendant-set or lever-set?


Oh, your case (No. H-1) is shown on the top of page 28 (below) of an early Burlington catalog. The rest of the catalog can be found in the References section at the end of the Burlington Watch Co. Encyclopedia article.

 

[Nathan Moore]

I think that its more likely to be an error in the records. Otherwise, we'd probably have some listings for 18-size, open-face. 21-jewel Bunn Special movements in t he range of 2,041,001-2,041,300.

We know that #2041063 (from the 2,041,001-2,041,300 run) is an 18-Size Bunn Special, consistent with the records. We also know that #2041109 was listed for sale in 2013 as an 18-Size Bunn Special, providing additional support to suggest the run is at least comprised of some 18-Size Bunn Special production.

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

By the way, is it a pendant set or a lever set?

Here is a close-up of the nail stem. when it arrived I could not see it and had to take the glass off.()Which I did not like to do) and there it was, so I pulled it out, set the hands, then bent it a little so it does not slip through. I want to run it for a few days to see out it runs. So far so good.

Allan.

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

 

[4thdimension]

It is a dragon. This was advertised as the "Dragon Case" in promotional catalogs distributed by the Burlington Watch Company.

It sure looked like a gryphon but I missed the obvious….no beak.-Cort

 

[Kent]

...
Nathan Moore said:


We know that #2041063 (from the 2,041,001-2,041,300 run) is an 18-Size Bunn Special, consistent with the records. We also know that #2041109 was listed for sale in 2013 as an 18-Size Bunn Special, providing additional support to suggest the run is at least comprised of some 18-Size Bunn Special production.

Nathan:

Thanks for pointing these two Bunn Specials out again - I missed seeing your earlier post. I've added them to our data base.

Allan:

Thanks for clarifying that your watch is lever-set.

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

This hunter-cased Burlington is on its way to me, so more about it when it arrives. Serial number 3733706, which says the watch was made c1920. So one of their later watches. It appears there is no definitive date of closure for this firm, it that true? I did look at the two catalogues for this pattern, but could not find it, so later than the 1918 catalogue, maybe.

Allan.

Just found the 21 Jewels catalogue, (1923), and not found this engraving.

Burlington Watch Company Catalog (c.1923) | PWDB Digital Archive

Digitized publication archived by the Pocket Watch Database.

pocketwatchdatabase.com

Burlington Watch Company Catalog (c.1915) | PWDB Digital Archive

Digitized publication archived by the Pocket Watch Database.

pocketwatchdatabase.com

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

So the watch is now here with me, and in the meantime, I have been unable to find this pattern for this Burlington watch case. Though I do know it was made by the North American Watch Case Company. (See below)

I now think I will start collecting these cases, really nice to have.

Allan.