Junghans mystery series pendulum dial question

Discussion in 'General Clock Discussions' started by Tempore747, Oct 26, 2017.

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  1. Tempore747

    Tempore747 Registered User

    May 7, 2017
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    Hi to every one. Recently bought this pendulum. It looks like an original junghans. I have a doubt on the dial marked Made in Italy. Know that Junghans was present in Italy too but i cannot realize if it would be original. the movement is classic as you can see from the backside picture.

    s-l1600-29.jpg s-l1600-31.jpg
     
  2. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    Oct 19, 2005
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    The Junghans logo is appearing on clocks coming from China. It would not be surprising to find that Italy is using it too.
     
  3. Burkhard Rasch

    Burkhard Rasch Registered User
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    otoh the movement looks original to me:mainspring in barrel,winding square and hand set in one vertical line.
    Burkhard
     
  4. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    Yes, and the crack in the dial shows more age than the modern ones would have. I wonder now if the dial was replaced at some time? The "made in Italy" is one I've never seen.
     
  5. JTD

    JTD Registered User

    Sep 27, 2005
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    Junghans' branch in Italy (Venice) is mentioned briefly in Schmid's 'Lexikon der Deutschen Uhrenindustrie' but I don't know if they ever marked their clocks 'Made in Italy'.

    I have never seen this mark before, but it would be interesting to know if anyone else has a Junghans clock with an Italian mark.

    JTD
     
  6. Tempore747

    Tempore747 Registered User

    May 7, 2017
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    Here is the statue and the clock.
    Statue.jpg
     
  7. new2clocks

    new2clocks Registered User
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    Since the "Made in Italy" marking is a U.S. requirement, is it possible Junghans exported clocks to the U.S. via their Italian subsidiary during the relatively short time period the U.S. was involved in WWI to circumvent the anti-German sentiment and, presumably, restrictions on import of German made products? Italy was not allied with Germany during WWI. This explanation would also explain why so few of these Junghans "Made in Italy" products are in existence.

    Another explanation could be that Junghans wanted to avoid higher tariffs on parts made in Germany and imported to certain countries, so those parts were imported from their Italian subsidiary.

    I have no proof of the above, but the assumptions are plausible.

    Regards.
     
    Tempore747 likes this.
  8. Betzel

    Betzel Registered User

    Dec 1, 2010
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    Greetings. My question is not about a swinger; it's a Junghans wall clock.

    A second-hand shop I frequent has a smallish wooden (looks like oak or a veneer) mechanical (2 train) wall clock for sale with what looks like a silver dial with the Junghans star logo on the top (between the center and 12:00) and "Made in Italy" marked at the bottom of the dial below 6:00. I have never seen anything like this before, and then stumbled across this thread, so I thought I'd ask. I suspect it's a bim-bam, with a 3-gong-rod chime, but did not look very close thinking it was another post WWII collaboration item. Maybe that's untrue? Were wall clocks part of this inter-war arrangement? If so, I may be able to get some photos...

    Any help is appreciated. I don't have Schmid's book :-(
     
  9. new2clocks

    new2clocks Registered User
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    Pictures of the dial, back of movement (with all inscriptions that may be on the movement) and the clock in general may be helpful in assisting with your questions.

    Junghans' "Made in Italy" clocks have not been presented on this board very much, so we would be very interested in the clock.

    Regards.
     
  10. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    Sep 4, 2008
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    In the swinger originally presented the "Made in Italy" looks much more faint than the numerals. It seems to be added to the dial after the firing process of the enamel and is therefore less stable. it would be interesting to see if in your clock this is also the case. I think it supports the idea that this was added for export reasons.

    Uhralt
     
  11. Betzel

    Betzel Registered User

    Dec 1, 2010
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    OK, I will try and sneak a peek to get some pictures.

    I have another Junghans wall clock marked "Foreign" (seems it was a UK import requirement from WWI?) This one actually says: Made in Italy. Maybe that means they put the dial on to help sell stuff after the war? But, I just gave a friend a W777 which was from '48 --had Germany right on the dial. If people think this should go in another thread, please direct me.

    I've only seen the insides of a swinger (?) from Steffan Pahlow on youtube. They are good repair (but not conservation) videos, if you are interested.
     
  12. new2clocks

    new2clocks Registered User
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    Betzel,

    Use of the word "Foreign" was a U.K. requirement under the Merchandise Marks Act of 1926 for products imported into the U.K.

    The use of "Made in Italy" (if on the dial) should have sufficed for U.K. purposes.

    Was "Made in Italy" on the dial or movement?

    Please provide as many pictures as you can as these will assist us better in answering your questions.

    Regards.
     
  13. Betzel

    Betzel Registered User

    Dec 1, 2010
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    Hi,

    The dial.

    Thanks for clarifying the UK Merchandise Marks Act of 1926. To be more clear, the word "Foreign" refers to a dial on a Junghans wall clock I presently own. I believe that this clock was made in Germany, and perhaps one of the last (maybe November of 1938?) before they went full on into WWII, but I am no historian. I only mentioned it as another "mysterious thing" I've found on the dial of Junghans clocks.

    Regarding the wall clock that is not in my possession, but (still?) for sale in the second-hand shop where I live now in the south of Italy, "the Junghans star logo [is] on the top (between the center and 12:00) and "Made in Italy" [is] marked at the bottom of the dial below 6:00" So, to answer your question, the marking on this clock is directly on the rather original looking dial, (silver tone, perhaps aluminum).

    Since it is (?) still in the shop, I will endeavor to get some pictures (the best I can) of it this week and post them. HTH.

    Curiouser and curiouser...
     
  14. new2clocks

    new2clocks Registered User
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    The "Made in [Country of Origin]" is a U.S requirement under the Tariff Act of 1890, commonly referred to as the McKinley Tariff Act, which was effective March, 1891. This requirement was for the clock movement. In 1909, the U.S. law was expanded to also require the "Made in" on the dial of the clock.

    Without seeing the clock (including the movement) to determine its age, it is possible that it could fall within my conjecture that I posted in response # 7, above, if it is of WWI vintage.

    Regards.
     
  15. Betzel

    Betzel Registered User

    Dec 1, 2010
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    Reminder: I don't own this clock. I was just struck by the Made in Italy marking on a Junghans dial and stumbled across this thread.

    The store asked me not to disturb the insides, so this was the best I could do with the camera. Sorry in advance.

    The hand style, clean white leather for hammer strikes, movement rack being brass tone (rather than dark blued) and hexagonal thumbscrews (rather than splined ones) all remind me of a postwar clock ('48) I had once that had a W.777 inside. Both had the same beat regulator instructions of 1 turn for 10 seconds a day, but I have seen these in many other clocks too. I could not tell for sure if this case was solid or veneer, but suspect it was plywood in some places. Not sure on that.

    I also wonder (I do not know) if some of the swinger statues mentioned in the original thread topic were Italian designed and made, and the movements may have been considered secondary contributions to this artwork, so they put the country of origin for the whole thing as "Made in Italy"? Just another guess...

    Bottom.JPG Strike.JPG Closeup.JPG Dial.JPG Main.JPG
     
  16. new2clocks

    new2clocks Registered User
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  17. new2clocks

    new2clocks Registered User
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    Betzel,

    Thanks for the photos. Unfortunately, the style of clock (box clock) could very well have been made during the WW I era and years beyond, so we need to see movement. I understand the merchant's reluctance to allow the movement to be taken out of the case.

    With respect to the swingers, I suspect that the swingers were designed and manufactured in Italy.

    We've known for some time that Junghans had operations in Italy, but the extent of those operations were not 100% clear. Thanks in large part to this board, it now appears that Junghans had more than just a sales office and manufacturing was part of the Italian operations.

    Regards.
     
  18. Betzel

    Betzel Registered User

    Dec 1, 2010
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    Sure thing.

    Odd living in the south of Italy (though I'm American) and seeing a clock presumably made for export in a second-hand shop, but things move around --or get nicked :)

    In a few months, the owner may realize it's not as valuable as he thinks, and reduce it. Then, on a slow day, maybe I can talk him into letting me take it down and pull the movement out. If so, I'll post what I find.

    The other thing I noticed and forgot to mention was an original key, which was the 2-hole "large wing" nickel plated steel variety, rather than smaller brass ones that Junghans sometimes hung off two screws inside the case for safe-keeping. The key is not directly helpful, but few clocks I find anywhere have keys. If they do, they are generic or do not fit the clocks they are with. This was a more recent, original, used, 4mm key. See you in the spring and thanks for the conversation!
     

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