Junghans K C Westminster Repair

Discussion in 'Clock Repair' started by Dave T, Sep 17, 2018.

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  1. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    I'm trying to be sure I have my ducks in a row, before I tear this one down.
    Some questions:
    1. Would Conover's "Chime Clock Repair" include this movement?
    2. What should I look real closely at regarding setting up the chime train?
    3. Compared to the GB Westminster I just completed how does this clock compare in terms of difficulty? The GB was fairly straightforward and relatively easy to assemble. In my opinion.

    I always take a lot of pictures, but never seem to have the right one when I put it back together.

    I can't find any detailed documentation on the process for this movement.

    The clock runs and chimes, but the strike spring does not wind. Not sure yet what it is, but I do know the retaining hook in the outer barrel is still intact. Other than that I know of no other problems, The clock is extremely dirty, and will most likely have some pivot wear.

    Any thoughts, comments, and "what to look fors" would be graciously appreciated. And again, if I keep at this maybe someday I'll be able to return the favor? If I live long enough. :)
    Junghans K C clock 16.jpg Junghans K C clock 15.jpg
     
  2. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    Conover's "Chime Clock Repair" includes a similar movement that should be helpful. There are no photographs of the movement just diagrams and text explanations. I did one of these not too long ago and don't recall any special difficulty but if you are giving someone an estimate, allow some extra time. This one has an impressive number of parts and will take a bit more time to put back together........and a lot more parts to keep track of.

    RC
     
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  3. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    Thanks RC, This is my clock. I don't consider myself qualified to work on something like this for anyone else. Think I might order Conover's book. He also has another called "Striking Clock Repair Guide". But think I'll go with "Chime Clock Repair" for now. Or wait to see how much of a hole I dig.
     
  4. bangster

    bangster Super Moderator
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    #4 bangster, Sep 17, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2018
    There may be some information you can use in THIS ARTICLE. (Wiki did something weird to the title.)

    I've got to go in and repair that article. Something has happened to it.
     
  5. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    You can buy the books directly from Steve at Your source for clock repair books The striking clock book is great but won't help much with this one. The Clock Repair Basics book is also great if you are at that experience level. All of Steve's books are a wonderful addition to a clock person's library. That Junghans is a nice clock so take your time and take a LOT of pictures. If this is your first chime clock, I might suggest setting it aside and trying a few less valuable chime movements first. There are usually a number of worn out chime movements on eBay.

    RC
     
  6. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    Thanks for the link. I have the "Basics" book now. I'm comfortable with tackling this one. It's just the timing of the chime train, that's a little intimidating.
     
  7. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    God bless you Bangs! I knew I'd seen that somewhere but sure couldn't find it today. I'll most likely be studying that one very closely as I proceed.
     
  8. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    Bangster, I've been looking at your writeup on the chime/strike sequence. Looks to me like if I need to adjust it, I can do it from the front of the plate?
    Also see some differences in the two movements, but basically I think they operate the same.
    Junghans K C clock 15.jpg Junghans K C chime apparatus 3.jpg
     
  9. bangster

    bangster Super Moderator
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    Yep. they are not identical. Mine has the locking plate ("count wheel") beween the plates, whereas yours has everything right out front where it's easy to get at. Yours looks much like a more "normal" chimer, as seen here: Chime Clock Basics.
     
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  10. James Foster

    James Foster Registered User
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    #10 James Foster, Sep 18, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2018
    Dave

    I have one of these Junghans chime movements on my bench now. I think it is a date code of A13. I found a couple of things to watch for. The second wheels with cut pinions had hard pivots. The movement I’m working on had a good deal of wear of those pivots. They required a diamond hone to even out. The remainder were not usually hard.

    The plates are about 2.3mm thick and upper wheels had small, relatively short pivots. In other words, the ends of some pivots were not proud of the bottom of the oil sinks even when the pivot shoulders were against the inside of the plate in question. As the pivot holes wore they didn’t necessarily wear clear through to the outside leaving the appearance from the outside as unworn round pivot holes so consider looking closely at the depthing to determine the need for bushings.

    Good luck,
    Jim
     
  11. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    Thanks Jim, I'll be careful to pay particular attention to that area as well. Just took a quick look at it, and appears that mine has the same short pivots. Still haven't taken it down yet, but from outside the plates the pivots don't appear to have much wear. Of course I can't see the inside yet, and there's a lot of dirty grease on most of them. If I interpret the B13, that would make my clock a few months newer than yours.
     
  12. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    Sounds like good news to me. I was thinking that the timing would be adjustable much like a Hermle.
     
  13. James Foster

    James Foster Registered User
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    Dave

    The signal for the strike to actuate is a little unique relative to other more modern three train movements. There is an arm that is lifted off a pin on the front side of the wheel driving the motion works that fits the center shaft sort of like a canon pinion on a watch. It's the same wheel with the pins to signal the chime train on the back side. Anyway there are a series of levers for warning and holding the strike train until the chime train has finished it's routine. One of these levers is inside the plates on a blued steel lever post adjacent to the post that has the wiper that interacts with the star wheel to lift the strike hammer. That lever needs to be positioned on the upper side of the arbor for the strike train third wheel with the star or lift cam.

    If during assembly the lever in question ends up below the third wheel arbor it is a significant irritant. To prevent bending pivots, deforming levers, etc. it means separating the plates and very nearly starting over with the assembly. I had to walk away from the frustration, hence this post. I guess I'm ready to go back and finish it.

    Good luck,

    Jim
     
  14. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    Thanks Jim,
    I'm still studying this movement, off and on. I'm inclined to remove the extra lower front plate and just the springs and repair the strike spring, then put it back together so I can really see the proper action of the chime and strike before I tear it down. It's difficult to see it all working correctly when it won't strike.
    And on top of that the levers for the chime are sluggish. Dirt I imagine. I oiled them to see if they would free up, but that hasn't helped.

    Maybe I could dip and soak the whole thing after removing the springs? Try to see it working properly, then tear it down?
     
  15. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    I can see where that lever could be assembled in the wrong position.
    Junghans K C clock 17.jpg
     
  16. James Foster

    James Foster Registered User
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    #16 James Foster, Sep 20, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2018
    Dave

    I’m afraid you'll discover that removing the "extra lower front plates" corresponding to the chime and time train mainspring barrels won't allow you to remove the mainsprings. It will just allow you to remove the gearing that gives some mechanical advantage in winding. I've got mine back together and on the test stand. There is really no issue setting up the chime or strike sequences

    I started this post earlier and just got back to it. The lever I was referring to is the brass lever on the lower post or blue steel arbor in the center of your picture. It has the rack hook attached outside the plates. I wasn’t paying attention when assembling the wheels between the plates and that lever got below the star wheel arbor. I did not discover it until I was installing all the components on the front of the movement after completing the rear of the movement. It was a pain to correct my error.

    Jim
     
  17. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    Thanks again Jim, Haven't looked at it hard enough I guess. But I thought those springs would come out independently without separating the plates. Just Finished a Gustav Becker Westminster, and those springs do come out separately. A quick look at the Junghans made me think they would also.
    Actually the strike spring is the only one I need to remove, not working, and it slides in a slot in the frame. It will surely come out! Won't it??
    Junghans K C clock 20.jpg
     
  18. James Foster

    James Foster Registered User
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    #18 James Foster, Sep 20, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2018
    Dave

    I’m sorry, I did look closely at the pictures you posted in post #1. Mine doesn’t have that extra plate. Yours appears the mainsprings come out without separating the plates. Also most of the first paragraph in post #13 doesn’t apply to your movement. It appears they made a changes in the last half of 1913. I hope I didn’t confuse or lead you astray.

    Jim
     
  19. James Foster

    James Foster Registered User
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  20. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    Okay! I went to bed last night thinking surely these springs will come out independently. Now I see. So far, I've seen 3 variations of this movement.
    Junghans K C clock variations.jpg
     
  21. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    Opened the strike side spring barrel, and found the center coil broken. Additionally showing signs of previous service and repair. The other (outside) end has been heat treated and drilled for a new loop.
    So... can't really tell how long it should be, but the remaining portion is approx. 60" long.
    .75" wide and .017" thick.
    Instead of just trying to find something close at Timesavers, does anyone know what the original specification should be?
    Outside of pictures already provided I still don't know what model movement I have.

    Would be nice if someone could find it in a Junghans catalogue too.

    Junghans K C clock 22.jpg Junghans K C clock 21.jpg
     
  22. shutterbug

    shutterbug Super Moderator
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    Give us the diameter of the barrel, the diameter of the inner arbor hook area and the thickness of the spring, and we can calculate the maximum length the barrel will tolerate. That might be the best you'll be able to do.
     
  23. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    Thanks Shut, Looks like I need all three springs.
    Time and Strike are the same: Barrell is 1.82" wide by 3/4"
    Chime is 1.98" wide by 15/16"
     
  24. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    My actual springs in the clock now are:
    Time and Strike both: .75" W x .017" Thick x 62" Long
    Chime: .9375" W x .022 Thick x 74 1/2" Long

    Closest thing I've found at Timesavers is: T&S #14234 .75w x .0175 th x 70" L
    Chime #16838 .953W x .018th x 76 1/2"
     
  25. shutterbug

    shutterbug Super Moderator
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    I think Timesavers #32927 would work for the time and strike. You'd have to cut it short, anneal the end and re-hole them. Their Sonora spring might work for the other one. It's a little wider, but if needed that part could be wound, captured and then ground down to fit. A little on each side would be best.
     
  26. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    I looked at the 32927 and it looks to me as if 32928 would be a closer match?
    Timesavers

    But the bigger question is, is this outside of my skill ability? Might be. How would I grind the sides down on the Sonora spring?
    1.0" X .022" X 136" Sonora Chime Hole End Mainspring
     
  27. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    Got an idea, If I have to order a new chime spring and shorten it, maybe I should just use this one, and put a new end on it? It's cracked about the same amount on both sides of the hole, but picture only shows one side of the cracked part.
    What do you think?

    Junghans K C chime spring 2.jpg
     
  28. shutterbug

    shutterbug Super Moderator
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    Absolutely! Cut off the end, anneal it about 1 inch in and make a new hole to match the old one. A drill and files will get you there.
     
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  29. bangster

    bangster Super Moderator
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  30. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    Looked all over and couldn't find that. Thanks!
     
  31. bangster

    bangster Super Moderator
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    Did you click on the link? Should take you there.
     
  32. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    Yes I did. Thanks so much.
     
  33. dickstorer

    dickstorer Registered User

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    Is this the one that does not have the chime correction mode?
     
  34. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    That's a good question. So far all I've done to it is repair the hole end on two springs and I'm waiting on a replacement for the time spring. Thought I'd then put the springs back in so I can watch it operate properly before I tear it down. Couldn't do that before since the strike spring was not functioning. All I know for sure so far, is that it runs well and chimes, but won't go into strike mode with the broken spring. It's this clock. There are evidently several variations of this style. At least pertaining to the springs.
    Junghans K C clock 15.jpg
     
  35. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    Finally got this clock re-assembled. But this is the first clock I've come across that I've had so much difficulty adjusting the anchor. It was not possible to leave it as I got it and do a thorough cleaning.
    Didn't discover any new problems other than the broken strike spring that I knew beforehand. The clock ran well and the chime side worked properly before servicing.

    I need some help finding a proper guide to set it. I know it would be proper to lower the anchor and gradually raise until I have equal release on both sides, but it's somewhat difficult to get access to. Think I might remove all the chime train works on the outside of the frame.

    Have to say I don't even know for sure what type of escapement it is. It's some type of recoil, but looks a lot like a deadbeat. The anchor is not equally shaped the same on both sides. The escape wheel runs in reverse. French Brocot? I've looked at Beat Setting 101, but it doesn't help much.
    Junghans K C escapement.jpg Junghans K C escapement1.jpg
     
  36. shutterbug

    shutterbug Super Moderator
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    That's a true recoil anchor, as opposed to a strip verge like most cheaper clocks use. Adjust it like you would a strip verge. Lower it until it won't escape, then raise it until it barely unlocks. That will give you the strongest impulse and widest pendulum swing. You can influence locks and drops by tilting it one way or the other, so look at that part closely. Even on both sides is the design goal.
     
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  37. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    Well, if we had prize for dumbest question of the day, I'd probably get it!
    But... I finally got this clock running again, barely. It's out of beat, I've got it propped up to the left side. And, hardly no swing. Looks like no recoil either to me. It's obvious I don't know how to adjust this type escapement. I've tried to get minimal lock as suggested without releasing the escape completely. This is worse than trying to adjust an anniversary clock!
    What do I do now?
     
  38. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    I think you misunderstood what Shutterbug said. You want to set the anchor as close to the escape wheel as possible (maximum lock), so that it just releases. This should give you the maximum amplitude. Remember, this is a recoil, not a deadbeat escapement where you would aim for minimum lock.

    Uhralt
     
  39. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    Thank you. I did misunderstand. Back to the drawing board.
     
  40. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    After many attempts I have the clock running steady for over 24 hours now. But I'm not happy with it yet. Still haven't been able to determine how to adjust it incrementally without losing my starting place.
    Take a look at these if you would please.

     
  41. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    You still have very little recoil. Is it possible to lower the anchor even more without stopping the clock? If not, you may have a bent tooth on the escape wheel.

    Uhralt
     
  42. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    Thanks, You confirmed my thinking. I was waiting to get a second opinion before I attempt it. Not sure if I can lower the anchor any more but I'll try.
     
  43. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    You can use a very fine permanent marker to draw a line on the plate and on the part that you move to document your starting point. In the past I have scratched a very fine line with a scriber for this purpose but you probably don't want to permanently scratch your plate.

    Uhralt
     
  44. TEACLOCKS

    TEACLOCKS Registered User
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    If I can ask another question Please.
    I need a pendulum for a B13, Could you show a picture of the pendulum and the size & weight ?
    Thank you
    Lloyd
     
  45. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    Not sure if this is what you need. B13 only means that the movement was made in the second half of 1913. Anyway, this is the pendulum of my Junghans Westminster clock. The weight is 4 7/8 ounces and the total length is 3.5 inches.

    Junghans Pendulum.jpg

    Uhralt
     

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