Junghans chime spring

[Iain bell]

Hello folks...
New here, so be nice (I 'm sure you are...)
I have a friends Junghans Westminster chime clock, marked A26, which doesn't chime.
Two problems. First, the chime spring is broken. No great problem, I can either a)replace it or b) repair it. It's snapped off at the barrel pinion end, just pulled the end off the spring...
So, best to repair or replace?
If repair, no problem. I have a book that tells me how...though I would prefer to replace it. Save me buying a winder
If replace, then I have issues....micrometer gives the thickness of the spring as 0.4mm. Calipers give it as 0.3mm. Major difference! Barrel depth is 21.35mm, inside diameter of 46.62. Spring 'height' is 18.92mm. Which thickness is likely to be correct, 0.4 or 0.3? I assume 0.4 being 25% stronger may speed the chime up?
Also, who can supply? Not fussed where in the world...
Second issue is the longest chime. I got a copper chime from Perrins. Nice. Different tone to the bronze originals. Not nice. Anyone do 4 chime sets, steel, copper, whatever? Lengths are (about) 240mm, 258, 275 and 310.
Clock runs well, keeps good time, just silent
Any help and advice gratefully received. I'm doing this for fun, I'm more of a car mechanic! Though I've done pocket watches and mantle/wall clocks before...
TIA,
Iain

 

[Dick Feldman]

Repairs on the inside coils of mainsprings are difficult due to the space available.
The flaw that caused the spring to fail may be an indicator of more flaws in the same spring.
Best to buy a new spring for ease and safety.
Spring sizes are relative in that substitutions can be made for small variations.
A broken spring on one of the inside coils may have shocked the rest of the wheel train.
Secondary damage is common when this happens.
You may find collateral damage to the click assembly, the teeth on the barrel, the second wheel teeth, a bent second wheel arbor or even damage to the third wheel and arbor in the train.
Over the last hundred years or so, both main springs have been wound the same number of times and had been submitted to the same stresses. Inspect closely the time train (click assemblies, spring, etc. etc.) for potential problems.
You will probably see excessive wear at all pivot holes in both trains.
That will hamper the reliability of the clock.
It might be time to address the wear in the movement as well.
Best Regards,
Dick Feldman

 

[SuffolkM]

Hi Iain

For your Junghans (made between January and June 1926, in case you were wondering - A for the first six months of the year and then the obvious, 26!) you are looking for a 0.4mm spring thickness.

Cheers
Michael

 

[Willie X]

Trick:
If you can find 10 layers of tightly compressed spring somewhere in the barrel, measure the stack with the tips of your vernier caliper. Record the 3 digit number and move the decimal one place to the left. IOWs, a .175" stack will become .0175" spring strength. If your spring is to bad to do this in the barrel, just cut up 10 - 1 1/2" pieces and clamp them in a good vise. It's probably better to make the measurement this way. Just be sure to make the measurement at the very top edge of the vise jaws, using the thinned down tip end of your calipers. The pieces tend to splay out above the clamp point. Willie X

 

[Iain bell]

Hi folks,
Thanks for the replies...
Dick Feldman, the spring is broken on the barrel end, it's pulled the tip off past the hole. Possibly badly tempered in the past. Easy access IF I go for repair. The rest of the train appears to be in good condition, no broken or bent bits. all holes are round. The spring is out of the barrel, so I'd need a winder to get it back in, this is more expensive than a new spring, and as I'm not looking to be doing this too often, I can't justify buying a winder for a one-off...

SuffolkM, exactly the info. I needed, thanks!

Willie, neat trick! Not needed, though!

Any recommendations as to suppliers of the above spring and chime rods?

You guys are good!
Iain

 

[SuffolkM]

Hi Iain,

For the spring, try Cousins UK (part 194045), Trifix 19 x 0.40 x 1700 x 45mm. A pretty common spring size, not dear!

On the damage potentially caused by the spring breaking, my experience has usually been that it's the teeth of the wheels that get bent out of shape. The barrel, second and third wheels especially. You have to look quite closely sometimes. You can also hear if the gears and pinions are damaged by running part of the train between the plates at high speed, and if you hear cycles of clicking and knocking, you have a problem. Silence is golden for this test! If you find a bent tooth, take care straightening it. You get one good attempt but if you repeatedly struggle with it, expect it to break off (making your problem into a bigger challenge altogether). I hope you're one of the lucky ones and nothing is damaged.

I'm afraid I don't have any suggestions on the chimes, but typically these are rescued from the "bone yard", i.e. a donor clock that is beyond any reasonable hope of repair.

Best of luck
Michael

 

[Bruce Alexander]

Second issue is the longest chime. I got a copper chime from Perrins. Nice. Different tone to the bronze originals. Not nice. Anyone do 4 chime sets, steel, copper, whatever? Lengths are (about) 240mm, 258, 275 and 310.

Welcome to the NAWCC's Forums Iain.

Try contacting chimeclockfan for advice on your chime rods.

Good luck with your project.

Bruce

 

[shutterbug]

When replacing chime rods, always buy a tuned set, not just one. But the rods being offered today are rather disappointing in sound. Get steel, and hope I suggest repairing your spring. You won't be able to replace it without a spring winder. However, you can make a winder. See instructions at the top of the forum. If you buy a spring, be sure it's not from India. Their quality is very poor, and they might break the first time you wind them up. Also be aware that new springs come with a gooey rust inhibitor that might look like a lubricant .... but it isn't.

 

[wow]

Hello folks...
New here, so be nice (I 'm sure you are...)
I have a friends Junghans Westminster chime clock, marked A26, which doesn't chime.
Two problems. First, the chime spring is broken. No great problem, I can either a)replace it or b) repair it. It's snapped off at the barrel pinion end, just pulled the end off the spring...
So, best to repair or replace?
If repair, no problem. I have a book that tells me how...though I would prefer to replace it. Save me buying a winder
If replace, then I have issues....micrometer gives the thickness of the spring as 0.4mm. Calipers give it as 0.3mm. Major difference! Barrel depth is 21.35mm, inside diameter of 46.62. Spring 'height' is 18.92mm. Which thickness is likely to be correct, 0.4 or 0.3? I assume 0.4 being 25% stronger may speed the chime up?
Also, who can supply? Not fussed where in the world...
Second issue is the longest chime. I got a copper chime from Perrins. Nice. Different tone to the bronze originals. Not nice. Anyone do 4 chime sets, steel, copper, whatever? Lengths are (about) 240mm, 258, 275 and 310.
Clock runs well, keeps good time, just silent
Any help and advice gratefully received. I'm doing this for fun, I'm more of a car mechanic! Though I've done pocket watches and mantle/wall clocks before...
TIA,
Iain

Full sets of chime rods are available at Timesavers.

 

[chimeclockfan]

I've done custom chime rod sets but without good rods to work from it isn't feasible to do a set right now. Timesavers is awaiting a new batch of good quality chime rods which are due to arrive later this year. It has been a long past 2 years of going through new rods for quality control and having several setbacks which had to be rectified. In the meantime you may find a spare rod gong unit on eBay but it's a lucky chance if used units are in good condition and survive shipping.

The original Junghans rods were made of bellmetal bronze, bronze alloyed with nickel, or beryllium copper with the objective being good sound quality in the differing case sizes rather than looks. What often happens is the clock was transported without the rods being secured which leads to them suffering from fatigue due to excess vibration. As the longest rod takes the most vibrations, it is usually most liable to breaking off in such scenarios.

 

[Iain bell]

Hi folks,
Thanks for all the replies and advice.
Had a look on timesavers website, their shortest rod in a 4-rod set is WAY too long! My longest is about 12.5".

SuffolkM, cheers for that, I'll get a spring from them.

Seems Hermle have a 5-rod set, screwed fitting, about the right length(s). I can use 4 of them, probably...just tap them to figure out which of the longest ones is the right note! Second longest would, I assume, be a harmonic?
I'll get ordering, keep you all updated.
P.S. I seem to have got lucky with the gear train, all seems fine and smooth, no nasty noises, no bent teeth or pinions!
Iain

 

[wow]

Hi folks,
Thanks for all the replies and advice.
Had a look on timesavers website, their shortest rod in a 4-rod set is WAY too long! My longest is about 12.5".

SuffolkM, cheers for that, I'll get a spring from them.

Seems Hermle have a 5-rod set, screwed fitting, about the right length(s). I can use 4 of them, probably...just tap them to figure out which of the longest ones is the right note! Second longest would, I assume, be a harmonic?
I'll get ordering, keep you all updated.
P.S. I seem to have got lucky with the gear train, all seems fine and smooth, no nasty noises, no bent teeth or pinions!
Iain

Your assumption that a single rod would be harmonic is probably not right. You can try to buy a rod that is longer and cut or grind it shorter until you get the needed pitch. I would buy two because tuning a single rod is tricky.

 

[Willie X]

Yep,
The rods are tuned to get the correct intervals but not to a standard frequency. Some recent rod sets from the modern companies are tuned to standard frequencies. What wow just said.
Willie X

 

[Iain bell]

wow and Willie X, I've ordered the set of five rods. If they're tuned to each other, as it were, it matters not if they're actual 'notes' as could be found on a piano, for example. There are two long rods in the set, one is just slightly shorter than the other, harmonic or not isn't an issue, one of them will be the right 'note'...
The clocks owner is a musician, so they have to sound sweet, but not something he can play along with..

 

[wow]

wow and Willie X, I've ordered the set of five rods. If they're tuned to each other, as it were, it matters not if they're actual 'notes' as could be found on a piano, for example. There are two long rods in the set, one is just slightly shorter than the other, harmonic or not isn't an issue, one of them will be the right 'note'...
The clocks owner is a musician, so they have to sound sweet, but not something he can play along with..

I hope you have good luck on that. Usually they are not tuned to the same pitches as the ones in your clock. Since you ordered the complete set, you will probably have to use all or at least four of the new ones to get the proper Westminster tune pitches. If he is a musician, and knows the Westminster tune, he will want the pitches to be perfect.

 

[Iain bell]

wow, perhaps I didn't explain correctly. The chime block has four chimes, I've bought a set of five, so whichever long one is the right note gets used, along with the other three shorter. So, replacing all of them, and having one left over, which is the one I assumed was a harmonic of the other long one, perhaps a half tone different. Whatever, it should work okay as a set of four, provided they are tuned to each other. Probably different notes to the original, but since he's never heard it chime, that won't be a problem!

 

[wow]

wow, perhaps I didn't explain correctly. The chime block has four chimes, I've bought a set of five, so whichever long one is the right note gets used, along with the other three shorter. So, replacing all of them, and having one left over, which is the one I assumed was a harmonic of the other long one, perhaps a half tone different. Whatever, it should work okay as a set of four, provided they are tuned to each other. Probably different notes to the original, but since he's never heard it chime, that won't be a problem!

I understand, now. Please let us hear the final results with a video. I’m always interested in the sound of the new sets that are being sold today. Some are inferior to the old original ones.

 

[Iain bell]

wow, I can do that. I suppose it would be of interest to others what the new chimes sound like. Didn't think of that!

 

[Iain bell]

Okay, folks, update! First, it was the strike spring that was broken, not the chime spring as I said... Cut off the end, new temper, new hole, fixed. The chime spring was refusing to hook onto the arbor, but a bit of fiddling got it. So, it works...
Little out of beat, but that's not it's final position, so I'll sort that when it goes back.
The new chimes, 4 of a five-rod set from Hermle, sound quite good to me. I can't be arsed filing the ends down to get perfect pitch, he's going to have to live with it Close enough for government work...
Hopefully attached a video so those who may be interested can hear it...

 

[chimeclockfan]

Sounds great, perfect sound. Just like an original Junghans rod gong unit.

 

[Willie X]

Sounds good to me. Willie X

 

[wow]

Video won’t open for me.

 

[Iain bell]

Video won’t open for me.

That's odd, wow. It's an MP4 file, maybe you don't have a player for them?

 

[JTD]

I can't open it either.

JTD

 

[shutterbug]

Our program tech says they are more accessible if embedded rather than attached. They open fine for me. Did you notice that it is housed on our own site? We didn't know we had that capability until recently .
That strike setup is sure different.

 

[JTD]

Our program tech says they are more accessible if embedded rather than attached. They open fine for me. Did you notice that it is housed on our own site? We didn't know we had that capability until recently .
That strike setup is sure different.

Don't know what any of that means, but I still can't open it.

JTD

 

[shutterbug]

Look in your download files. If you haven't instructed the computer what to do with the MP4 files, it might just download them. If you click on them in that folder, they will probably open