Help Junghans B 12 #140 clock movement

Rod

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I have this movement cleaned and ready to finish setting up . I have attached pictures of the front and back of the movement and a picture of 2 small springs. I need to determine where these springs go as I believe they are attached to the 2 arbors, one of which will silence the chime train, the other to adjust the speed of the time movement. Can someone please advise. As well, are there any glitches I need to be aware of in synchronizing the chime sequence. Thank you. Rod McLeod

IMG_0001.JPG IMG_0002.JPG IMG_0003.JPG
 
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Rod

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In reassembling this movement, I think someone else who worked on this unit has installed the wrong pendulum hanger as the one on the movement is not nearly long enough to properly insert it onto the top arbor which adjusts the speed of the clock. I wish I could find more info on this very different movement.
 

Dave T

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I think those two springs go on the two upper shafts that control the chime/silent, and fast/slow adjustments. (Which you don't have installed yet.)
As shown here.
Junghans K C clock variations.jpg K C Clock Junghans 3.jpg
 
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Rod

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Thanks, Dave. Do you mean they go on once the dial plate is installed, then behind the 2 small levers?
What is the means to hold the trip lever from falling back too far when the hands reach the chime set lever?
As well, do you have thoughts on the length of the pendulum hanger.
Thanks, Rod.
 

Rod

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Thanks, Dave. Do you mean they go on once the dial plate is installed, then behind the 2 small levers?
What is the means to hold the trip lever from falling back too far when the hands reach the chime set lever?
As well, do you have thoughts on the length of the pendulum hanger.
Thanks, Rod.
 

tracerjack

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I do not know which parts you mean with the terms ‘trip lever’ and ‘chime set lever’. I have later versions of this movement, 1924 and 1931, so I might be able to help with the leader and chime sequencing.
 

Dave T

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Thanks, Dave. Do you mean they go on once the dial plate is installed, then behind the 2 small levers?
What is the means to hold the trip lever from falling back too far when the hands reach the chime set lever?
As well, do you have thoughts on the length of the pendulum hanger.
Thanks, Rod.
That is correct, the pictures show the springs in place before the dial is on.
I also don't know what you're referring to about the trip lever.
The two springs in question are shown here in the red oval.
Junghans K C chime apparatus 3 1.jpg
 

Rod

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That is correct, the pictures show the springs in place before the dial is on.
I also don't know what you're referring to about the trip lever.
The two springs in question are shown here in the red oval.
View attachment 732957
Thanks again, Dave. I will go at this again but I may be a few days getting back to you. I really appreciate your advice and time.
Rod.
That is correct, the pictures show the springs in place before the dial is on.
I also don't know what you're referring to about the trip lever.
The two springs in question are shown here in the red oval.
View attachment 732957

IMG_0002.JPG
 

Rod

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Thanks again, Dave. I will go at this again but I may be a few days getting back to you. I really appreciate your advice and time.
Rod.


View attachment 734343
Hi Dave. I just realized I had not attached the front view of this movement. I am including it now. I am also including the image without the hands barrel etc to show the lever which sets the chime movement. There is nothing which prevents this lever from tipping back from where the pins in the back of the hands barrel catch the lever, When I dismantled the movement, there was a lot of thread around this lever . As well, I am having difficulty synchronizing the 1/4 hour time sequences. Lastly, do you have a suggestion for the length of the pendulum hanger. A previous repair has simply put in a shorter hanger with an adjustable pendulum bob. Thanks again for your insight. Rod.

IMG_0005.JPG IMG_0004.JPG
 

tracerjack

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On the lever able to fall backwards, do you mean the "lifter"; the small lever shaped liked a hair dryer just above the center arbor? There are several levers in the chime train, and "sets the chime movement" kind of applies to all of them. As for the quarter chimes, problems in what manner? Are the notes incorrect? Correct, but not playing at the right time? Last, a picture of the leader and pendulum that you have would help to determine if you need something else or if what you have would do just as well. As I previously posted, I have later models of this movement. I would like to help, but your posts are too vague for me. I need more precise descriptions of what the problems are.
 

Dave T

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Steven Conover's "Chime Clock Repair" covers this movement in detail. And the clock pictured in #7 name some of these parts, even though it's not exactly the same movement.
 

Rod

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On the lever able to fall backwards, do you mean the "lifter"; the small lever shaped liked a hair dryer just above the center arbor? There are several levers in the chime train, and "sets the chime movement" kind of applies to all of them. As for the quarter chimes, problems in what manner? Are the notes incorrect? Correct, but not playing at the right time? Last, a picture of the leader and pendulum that you have would help to determine if you need something else or if what you have would do just as well. As I previously posted, I have later models of this movement. I would like to help, but your posts are too vague for me. I need more precise descriptions of what the problems are.
Hi Dave.
Yes, it is the small lever shaped like a hair dryer just above the center arbor. How do I stop this lever from falling back too far?
The difficulty I have with the chime train is synchronizing the cams on the front of the movement. The chime drum is correct.
The picture I sent of the rear of the movement shows the pendulum hanger which the owner supplied with the clock. you can see that it does not reach the lever which adjusts the speed of the clock.
On the lever able to fall backwards, do you mean the "lifter"; the small lever shaped liked a hair dryer just above the center arbor? There are several levers in the chime train, and "sets the chime movement" kind of applies to all of them. As for the quarter chimes, problems in what manner? Are the notes incorrect? Correct, but not playing at the right time? Last, a picture of the leader and pendulum that you have would help to determine if you need something else or if what you have would do just as well. As I previously posted, I have later models of this movement. I would like to help, but your posts are too vague for me. I need more precise descriptions of what the problems are.
Steven Conover's "Chime Clock Repair" covers this movement in detail. And the clock pictured in #7 name some of these parts, even though it's not exactly the same movement.
Steven Conover's "Chime Clock Repair" covers this movement in detail. And the clock pictured in #7 name some of these parts, even though it's not exactly the same movement.
I will try to locate Conover,s book. Thanks for the suggestion. Rod.
 

tracerjack

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The lever above the lifter, the one it is supposed to lift, will keep it in place. In none of your photos showing the back plate is there a leader. I think getting Conover’s book would be your best bet. I have most of his books. They are excellent, especially the accompanying diagrams.
 

Dave T

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Hi Dave.
Yes, it is the small lever shaped like a hair dryer just above the center arbor. How do I stop this lever from falling back too far?
The difficulty I have with the chime train is synchronizing the cams on the front of the movement. The chime drum is correct.
The picture I sent of the rear of the movement shows the pendulum hanger which the owner supplied with the clock. you can see that it does not reach the lever which adjusts the speed of the clock.
The small lever should only move when the quarter hour pin raises it, and the chime lift lever limits how far it can go, and then fall after chiming. So I don't know what you mean by falling back too far.
The picture of the rear of the movement shown in post #8 shows no suspension spring or pendulum.
Here's a picture of mine.

Junghans pendulum bob 5 this is it 1.jpg
 

Rod

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The small lever should only move when the quarter hour pin raises it, and the chime lift lever limits how far it can go, and then fall after chiming. So I don't know what you mean by falling back too far.
The picture of the rear of the movement shown in post #8 shows no suspension spring or pendulum.
Here's a picture of mine.

View attachment 734464
Hi Dave. Re Conover's info, I have it now. However, I think it is for a newer movement than the one I am trying to rectify. My movement is a 1912 B12 #140 made by Junghans. My movement does not have the #22 chime correction guide arm, nor the #15 locking plate nor the #18 chime drop lever.. It only has the #19 chime locking cam. It also has a lever which the chime movement turns to lift the strike set lever supposedly when at the 12 o'clock position. Does this give you some idea of what my problem is. I noted in the forum there were other queries re this movement, one which seemed to note that this movement had an inherent problem due to a lack of the chime locking mechanism which seemed to be resolved in later movements. I hope I am not wasting your time. I do appreciate your efforts to assist me. Thanks, Rod.
 

Dave T

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I hope I am not wasting your time. I do appreciate your efforts to assist me. Thanks, Rod.
Not at all, It's been a while since I worked on mine, but I'll study this and see if I can help. And I'm sure there are those here who can also provide better advice too.
 

Rod

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Not at all, It's been a while since I worked on mine, but I'll study this and see if I can help. And I'm sure there are those here who can also provide better advice too.
Thanks, Dave. Rod.
 

tracerjack

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A similar movement to yours is shown in Conover’s book on page 84, a B10. Much of the front plate levers appear to be the same as yours. That movement has no chime correction feature, so I would assume on initial setup, the chime drum must be adjusted to the internal locking plate, since there appears to be no adjustment to the plate itself. Perhaps some side view photos might help identify if your movement works in a similar manner.
 
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new2clocks

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A similar movement to yours is shown in Conover’s book on page 84, the B10.

Here is a nice YouTube repair video of the B 10 which might help.

'B 10' is not a model number - it is a date code. It indicates the movement was made in the second half of the year 1910.

Junghans made all kinds of movements in any particular year, and most were stamped with a date code.

Regards.
 

tracerjack

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Yes, it is only a date code, but with a lack of a model number, it is the only way to at least narrow down the field. Saying you have a Junghans chimer is pretty useless. Saying you have one from 1910 helps a bit. Not a lot, but a bit. I do see that I should have written 'a' B10, rather than 'the' B10 which does make it sound like a model number. I have corrected my posts.
 
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wow

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If you study Conover’s section on chime correction in the photos below, it should help you understand it. It must be just right. The one in the photo is set up right.
I just smoothed the winding gears for the time and chime trains which bind on the plate making winding very tight. Otherwise this one is set up correctly. If you need certain photos, let me know.

8977692C-DABD-4EE1-B33A-1D2B323D35A5.jpeg 48A1C114-F013-411E-A9D8-65B279D77E3C.jpeg
 

tracerjack

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The OP’s version is not the same as pictured in wow’s post #24 and does not have chime correction according to Conover’s book. It also has an internal chime sequence (locking) plate, which I’m assuming has no means of adjustment.
 

wow

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The OP’s version is not the same as pictured in wow’s post #24 and does not have chime correction according to Conover’s book. It also has an internal chime sequence (locking) plate, which I’m assuming has no means of adjustment.
You’re right, Tracer. Different movement. My bad!
 

Rod

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A similar movement to yours is shown in Conover’s book on page 84, a B10. Much of the front plate levers appear to be the same as yours. That movement has no chime correction feature, so I would assume on initial setup, the chime drum must be adjusted to the internal locking plate, since there appears to be no adjustment to the plate itself. Perhaps some side view photos might help identify if your movement works in a similar manner.
Sorry for the delay replying to your email. Page 84 of Conover's book is the last page about Sessions two-train movements, not a Junghans B10 movement. Junghans B10 movement is page 135 - 141 but describes a newer model of the B10. The one pictured on page 139 shows a locking plate which my movement does not have. I am still trying to locate someone familiar with the older B10.
Thanks for your suggestions. Rod.
 

Rod

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If you study Conover’s section on chime correction in the photos below, it should help you understand it. It must be just right. The one in the photo is set up right.
I just smoothed the winding gears for the time and chime trains which bind on the plate making winding very tight. Otherwise this one is set up correctly. If you need certain photos, let me know.

View attachment 738679 View attachment 738680
Sorry for the delay answering your email. The photos you submitted show the movement having a locking or correcting plate in the chime train. The older B10 movements do not have this plate. I am still trying to locate someone familiar with the older B10 movement. Thanks for your photos and you suggestions. Rod.
 

Rod

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Many thanks for forwarding the above video. I had a quick look at it and it looks like the one I am struggling with. I will get back at this movement in the next week or so,
Thanks again!! Rod.
Sorry for the delay. As it turned out, the video showed the newer version of the B10 movement which has a locking/correcting plate on the chime train. I an still trying to locate someone who is familiar with the older B10 movement which does not have said plate. Thanks for your info. Rod.
 

tracerjack

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Just checked pg 84 of Conover’s “Chime Clock Repair” and it describes the older version B10. I'm currently working on a Becker that has an internal locking plate. I've split the plates four times already trying to get the lever, stop pin wheel and warning pin wheel in proper alignment. If it is anything like yours, I can sympathize with your frustration. Started a conversation showing the page 84 that I have in my edition.
 

tracerjack

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As previously pointed out, "B10" merely refers to the year the movement was made. Yours was made in 1912, and could be a completely new design from those made in 1910. You started this thread on where 2 small springs went. Then you wanted to know about how to keep the lifter from over rotating, but I couldn't see how it could over rotate with the lever above it keeping it in line. Next, it was how to synch "cams" on the front plate, but I only see one cam. After reading through the whole thread, I still can't pin-point what problem you are trying to solve. You've supplied front and back views. Side view photos of your movement might help nail down how your movement is supposed to work.
 

Rod

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Just checked pg 84 of Conover’s “Chime Clock Repair” and it describes the older version B10. I'm currently working on a Becker that has an internal locking plate. I've split the plates four times already trying to get the lever, stop pin wheel and warning pin wheel in proper alignment. If it is anything like yours, I can sympathize with your frustration. Started a conversation showing the page 84 that I have in my edition.
Thanks. The Conover manual I have access to does not have this info. Does he have another manual which I should access?
Thanks, Rod.
 

tracerjack

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That is the only chime repair book of his that I know of. I am still perplexed by your book having a Sessions 2 train movement on pg 84. The Sessions 2 train in my book starts on pg 44. Still, you haven't posted a detailed description of the problem with your movement. All chimers work pretty much on the same principles. It shouldn't be that difficult to diagnose what it off on your movement once we can pinpoint where the chime stop is, where the warning pin and tab are and if it has chime correction. We need more info.
 

tracerjack

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I'm curious if that is scoring on the front plate or some sort of cam (red circle). In the green circle, is that the chime stop?
IMG_0005.JPG
 

tracerjack

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There appear to be several variations on this arch type movement. The movement in the article does share several features with the OP’s. I’m not sure we will find an article or someone on the forum with the exact same one as the OP’s. And we don’t really need to. Every variation sets out to accomplish the same things, warning, chime start, chime duration, etc. It shouldn’t be difficult to figure out what each lever and cam does on the OP’s model.
 
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Rod

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I am not sure if the following article will be of assistance, but it appears to pertain to the OP's movement. The referenced movement was made in 1912, but appears to be the same as the OP's movement.

The Junghans Â"Â"Arch-TopÂ" Movement | NAWCC Forums

Regards.
Many thanks for this very complete article which has helped me to synchronize the chime and strike movements. It is interesting to note that I am not the only one trying to understand this movement.
My last quandary has to do with the attachment of the pendulum hanger suspension spring to the adjuster lever which is operated by a small hand on the front of the clock. What is the the length of the suspension spring - or - is there a connecting piece between the top of the hanger and the adjuster lever. There is a pendulum hanger present but it is not long enough to connect to the adjusting lever. The picture I had inserted shows the space between the adjuster lever and the hanger. Thanks, Rod.
 

Rod

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There appear to be several variations on this arch type movement. The movement in the article does share several features with the OP’s. I’m not sure we will find an article or someone on the forum with the exact same one as the OP’s. And we don’t really need to. Every variation sets out to accomplish the same things, warning, chime start, chime duration, etc. It shouldn’t be difficult to figure out what each lever and cam does on the OP’s model.
With your assistance, I was able to synchronize the chime movement. Thank you. The remaining problem remains with trying to find out what length the pendulum hanger needs to be to connect the suspension spring to the lever which adjusts the rate of speed of the time movement. Can you assist me with that? Thanks. Rod.
 

tracerjack

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I do not have that particular model, but I know it requires a very long suspension spring that attaches to the upper split post and passes through the lower split post. The photo in post #14 shows the spring attached to a long flat leader with a normal bob with a split hook. First, you can simply raise the upper split post on your movement to its highest position and measure how long the suspension part would need to be. In the photo, the spring goes well beyond the lower split post down to nearly the top of the crutch arm. You can estimate the entire length of bob, leader and spring from the photo, and then do the math. Or, you can patiently wait, hoping that someone with that movement can give you exact measurements.
 

Rod

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I do not have that particular model, but I know it requires a very long suspension spring that attaches to the upper split post and passes through the lower split post. The photo in post #14 shows the spring attached to a long flat leader with a normal bob with a split hook. First, you can simply raise the upper split post on your movement to its highest position and measure how long the suspension part would need to be. In the photo, the spring goes well beyond the lower split post down to nearly the top of the crutch arm. You can estimate the entire length of bob, leader and spring from the photo, and then do the math. Or, you can patiently wait, hoping that someone with that movement can give you exact measurements.
Many thanks. I sort of suspected this was the case. I will try the trial and error approach. Rod.
 

Rod

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Many thanks for these photos. They are exactly what I need.
Rod.
 

Jess19721

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Good to hear it! Bad news on mine. The lantern pinion on the chime locking plate arbor has a few trundles cracked due to a past chime main spring failure. I don't know how I missed it on first inspection, feeling pretty stupid to just be spotting it now. I'm too new to be able to fix the damage so searching for a replacement. Boo. Bummed.
 

Rod

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Good to hear it! Bad news on mine. The lantern pinion on the chime locking plate arbor has a few trundles cracked due to a past chime main spring failure. I don't know how I missed it on first inspection, feeling pretty stupid to just be spotting it now. I'm too new to be able to fix the damage so searching for a replacement. Boo. Bummed.
Sorry I cannot help you. Good luck in your search.
Rod.
 

shutterbug

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Trundles are not too hard to replace. You need the exact same size in diameter and preferably in length. There is lots on this site about the procedure. Use search and do a bit of reading and then go for it. You'll feel good about yourself when you get it done ;) Pivot wire works great for the trundles.
 

Jess19721

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Thank you for the encouragement. I found a thread where there was some debate about using sewing needles vs. music wire. I did find that the needles appeared to be the right size, but I went to ACE and picked up some music wire and I'm giving it a go. Is pivot wire the same as music wire?
 

Rod

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Trundles are not too hard to replace. You need the exact same size in diameter and preferably in length. There is lots on this site about the procedure. Use search and do a bit of reading and then go for it. You'll feel good about yourself when you get it done ;) Pivot wire works great for the trundles.
What are trundles and where are they located in the movement? Thanks.
Rod.
 

wow

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What are trundles and where are they located in the movement? Thanks.
Rod.
Rod, there are two types of pinions used in clock making, lantern pinions and cut pinions. Pins (trundles) are used in lantern pinions. Here’s one:
 

Jess19721

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Rod, there are two types of pinions used in clock making, lantern pinions and cut pinions. Pins (trundles) are used in lantern pinions. Here’s one:
Mission accomplished! Thank you again! Here is before and after. I put a dab of orange loctite and a small washer on top, putting in the new trundles widened the holes and I was afraid they might vibrate out. Hope that was okay. Œ.
IMG_0667.jpg
014EA880-D864-4C18-9664-27C140815D41.jpg
 

shutterbug

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Looks good. If it runs, you must have got the size right. The Loctite won't hurt anything. :)
In the next to the last pic, it looks like one trundle might be broken. Maybe just the pic.
 
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