Junghan 400 day

[Peter W]

I am trying to get this clock to run BUT. It has been sorely messed about with during its life and the eccentric nut gouged horribly. The pivot hole is at the 3 o’clock position when seen from front. To get clock in beat rather than twist the spring time and again I cut a slot in a washer and sat top block on it which is easier to turn minimally either way. At this stage I just want the clock to go. Not bothered yet about time keeping. So far it flutters when I move pin by finger but palettes stick when moved by fork. My question is, is my theory regarding the washer “saddle” practical or am i overlooking something basic? The spring is dead center where the top block normally sits. I lowered the fork to a position about 1 cm from top of pin. Is this the right position or should it be higher? Any suggestions gratefully received.

I also noticed a similar clock on eBay no. 23115 had a suspension guard. My clock at 24517, 1402 clocks later, never had one nor does it have Germany on back plate.

 

[shutterbug]

I think that upper block can be turned by itself to correct for the beat.

 

[Peter W]

Hi and Tnx. On this model there is no saddle to turn. The top block sits fixed in parallel arms and one has to twist the suspension spring below top block to get it in beat. Not an easy way.

 

[whatgoesaround]

I think the anchor pin is able to rotate on this one to set in beat.

 

[Ingulphus]

I believe the anchor can be rotated (carefully) on its arbor to place the clock in beat. No need to twist the spring.

 

[Peter W]

The anchor pin is set solidly in arbor and cannot move but thanks for suggestion.

 

[whatgoesaround]

I have a Junghans clock with the round movement and that is how I got mine in beat. Not to say that they are all the same, but give it another try.

 

[Peter W]

Tnx for suggestion. Then I’ll try moving the pin. Is it threaded into arbor? So will only need a half turn max to get it in beat?

 

[whatgoesaround]

I would guess it is a friction fit. Push the pin and it should move; as you would expect, it is not real loose. A small amount makes a difference.

 

[Peter W]

My photo shows anchor and pin. I cannot move pin and fear too much force will cause more damage. Is your anchor like this whatgoesaround?

 

[whatgoesaround]

View attachment 462506 My photo shows anchor and pin. I cannot move pin and fear too much force will cause more damage. Is your anchor like this whatgoesaround?

No, there is a collar at the base of the pin that allows its rotation, if I remember correctly. I am not where I can get to it to check. I definitely don't see that on yours.

 

[shutterbug]

That poor thing has really taken some abuse! I can't see the pallets well enough to see what their condition is.

 

[etmb61]

That anchor is not original. Here is how yours should look:

https://mb.nawcc.org/attachments/100_4786-jpg.301014/

 

[whatgoesaround]

I just checked and there is the collar I thought it had. I see Eric has already shown you what it should look like. I wonder if Horolovar might have the correct one.

 

[Peter W]

Thank you one and all. Most enlightening! I did think the pin is a bit short but it does appear to stand vertically above arbor and theoretically should work.

Were there a number of variations on this model does anyone know.

I see the clock shown doesn’t have suspension spring guard either. May I ask what number your clock has or is number near my 24517?

Here is the anchor shot from as many different angles as Kim Kardashian and as revealing, perhaps!

Can you tell, does it need new pallets?

And why does my post show a purple eye icon?

 

[shutterbug]

They look a bit short, perhaps ... and I can't see the impulse angle very well. It looks like they may have been altered. Not sure. I think I'd try to get the proper anchor from Horolovar.

 

[Peter W]

Tnx Shutterbug, i’ll take another photo later today. Do you know how long the pallets are below the brass part to tips? And the diameter of the escape wheel?

 

[shutterbug]

Can't answer the second question, but the other one gets into some complicated escapement theory involving locks and drops as well as impulse. I don't think you're ready to tackle that part yet

 

[Peter W]

Tnx shutterbug. True, I don’t really understand drop and lock, even if I did the eccentric is too gouged to move but pivot hole is at 3/9 o’clock depending on viewpoint. Here Is a full frontal. Does it help? Tnx for your photo too, Eric. Even from angle of lens on Eric’s photo the pallets seem to be set deeper than mine but I presume the diameter of escape wheel will determine pallet setting so long as all is “as original”.

 

[shutterbug]

Depending on the size of the EW you may be OK. Yours looks like it's adjusted for a fairly small EW. I'm no good at judging impulse angles by sight, but the exit angle looks pretty steep to me. An accurate judgement could be made using David LaBounty's method for finding half deadbeat lift angles. Find it here.

 

[whatgoesaround]

Peter,
Sorry I am late with my reply with your request for my clock's #; it is 32190, so not quite as old as yours.

 

[lesbradley]

I have also had ongoing problems with serial no.24128. Very difficult to get it to run continuously without flutter, and I am no beginner to these clocks. All problems seem to be with the eccentric adjustment and pallets.

 

[Peter W]

Thanks for number whatgoesaround. I’ve come to same conclusion Les. I have changed pallets, adjusted them a “thousand” times, fork up, fork down, changed escape wheel and my eccentric is immovable being so gouged though it is at 3/9 o’clock which I am told is the correct position. I am thinking to try and file a sharper groove into the nut? Any suggestions or warnings?

Another feature I don’t understand is why do lower numbered clocks have guards and “Germany “ when my vintage doesn’t. Or are there inconsistencies or were they made in different factories? It has two indents where screw holes had been earlier!!!!? Also my anchor appears original with no collar for the pin and twisting spring the only way to get clock in beat.

Is it possible Junghan started production with a higher number, say 35000 or 40000, even 50000 and numbered backwards as having a suspension guard, a pin collar and a place name would be considered improvements. Improvements usually appear later inproduction runs surely, not earlier then be removed. Maybe it should be called a Mystery clock

 

[Peter W]

Les, can you measure the height of the pallets above the brass anchor in your clock? Easier than other side unless your clock is in pieces. Any tips on how to move a gouged eccentric?

 

[Harry Hopkins]

I am thinking to try and file a sharper groove into the nut? Any suggestions or warnings?

I have seen some eccentrics in pretty bad shape with the slot rounded off which I assume is your problem. First I would take a very sharp scribe or other sharp tool and try to dig out any brass that has been displaced and would prevent a tool from fitting the slot perfectly. An offset screwdriver offers the best leverage in turning these but spend some time filing and dressing the blade for a perfect fit. Most of the offset screwdrivers I have have a hollow ground blade which should work the best in this situation.

 

[Peter W]

Thanks Harry for your suggestion. Here’s my EN!!! Photo should be turned 90 degrees clockwise so pivot hole is at 3 o’clock. Do you mean to file deeper into groove or to file groove wider to eradicate some of the “slips” at top and bottom of groove?

Seems like someone tried turning nut clockwise and anti clockwise.

Can you show a photo of your offset screwdriver filed up for use? I don’t want to make errors. Knowledge helps eradicate that.

 

[Peter W]

What is the advantage of a filed up offset screwdriver over a standard filed up screwdriver to move an eccentric nut? You put your thumb on the offset is it? More control? Should the blade be the length of the groove and as wide as groove?

 

[Harry Hopkins]

Hi Peter, A regular screwdriver with the tip filed to remove the taper and give it the correct thickness of the slot would work. I prefer the offset screwdriver for 2 reasons.. First being leverage as some of these eccentrics are difficult to turn and the second is control.. it is much easier to make small adjustments with the handle at 90 degrees.

Your slot is gouged up pretty good but I think you should be able to turn it with a nicely shaped blade. Just make sure there is not some brass or dirt in the slot that has been displaced by previous attempts that would prevent the screwdriver blade from getting full depth in the hole. I have never had to do this but one solution to a slot that has been terribly abused would be to use a small end mill in a milling machine to clean up the slot.

The first picture is trying to show you how I have ground the blade on my screwdriver. I actually normally use a small belt sander to do the shaping but have also used a file. Notice the surface is completely flat and the thickness has been ground down for a perfect fit in the eccentric as seen in the second photo.

 

[shutterbug]

Note, I rotated the pic in post #26 to match the view intended

 

[Peter W]

Thanks Shutterbug for turning pic.

And Harry for your photos. Very enlightening. I see the cross bar height much lower to the plate than the offset screw drivers I saw on google, or have you ground it so far down?

How far do you move EN? A tenth of a mm?

I think I will try filing the slot a little deeper to get a slight barrier for osd to grip.

The entrance pallet catches on some teeth on EW so should I move EN clockwise? I tested the EW pivots. They are straight so wheel is running exactly circular and all teeth appear to be same length.

Thank goodness there is a bracket to access the anchor, the times I’ve had it on and off.

I notice some vertical play in front plate escape wheel pivot hole so if I move pin with finger it flutters but not much flutter when the fork moves pin. Should I bush the hole or leave it?

Thanks for your advice and tips.

 

[shutterbug]

If it flutters while running, move the fork up a little. Otherwise don't worry about it.

 

[Harry Hopkins]

The offset screwdriver in the photo has been ground a few times as needed for each job.

A small turn on the eccentric will make a larger change in the geometry than you might expect. I agree with you that starting with a fraction of a mm would be appropriate. From your description of the problem I believe the eccentric pivot hole should be lowered so it looks like clockwise is the right direction by looking at your picture. By adjusting the eccentric your goal is to achieve equal drops. Once you have that then you can move on. If you have access to the '400 Day Clock Repair Guide' reading section 7 will give you a much greater understanding of the adjustments.

I imagine the amount of play with your escape wheel pivot is normal. It is very seldom that any hole in a 400 day clock needs bushed.

 

[Peter W]

Well I moved entrance pallet up a fraction of a fraction which made fluttering worse even with fork as high as it can go so pallet and fork down again. I gently filed any burrs on EW, gently squeezed top of teeth with flat pliers and back to where I was; entrance pallet snagging on each tooth so pin can’t move over to left while exit pallet is pretty deep when pendulum turning 360. I haven’t moved ENut yet till I buy an offset screw driver. Any suggestions which way to go? I was going to post a video but was too big mb and not good lighting. Would a video help ascertain the next step? Thanks for all advice so far. It’s got me a step nearer.

 

[Harry Hopkins]

The adjustments to the 400 day escapement are not intuitive so what looks like the correct adjustment will often cause the opposite effect as desired. In the case of your entrance pallet snagging the EW teeth the problem can be solved by shortening the exit pallet length instead of the entrance pallet length. Since your clock has the wrong anchor installed it adds another problem into the mix plus the fact that we are certain that every adjustment has been tampered with. I am not familiar with the movement you have so cannot make definitive answers and I am not even certain your replacement anchor spans the correct number of teeth. There is an order of adjustments to get your escapement geometry back to where it will operate and the first step is to adjust the eccentric for equal entrance and exit drops. Yes a video would be helpful, I know a lot of members post videos to YouTube and just put the link here... others might have better suggestions as to how to post a video directly on here.

 

[Peter W]

Hi Les B, is the anchor on your clock with a collar for the pin to turn left to right like all the others or is the pin coming straight out from the arbor?

 

[Peter W]

Thanks for tips Harry. There are 6 teeth including the two on which the pallets rest. Today I went out to buy an offset sd but no luck. Try again tomorrow. If no luck I’ll try making one from an Allen key.

From photos I have seen the anchor and escape wheel appear to sit centre between the plates. Mine do not so maybe the escape wheel, too, is not original. The pinion fits the centre wheel ok and the wheels all turn after only two clicks winding.

Be back after solving the offset sd problem and moving the EN. I shall try moving exit p in a fraction as you suggest then I will try posting a video. Thanks again.

 

[lesbradley]

Hi Les B, is the anchor on your clock with a collar for the pin to turn left to right like all the others or is the pin coming straight out from the arbor?

The clock has been partially dismantled for quite a while. I removed the escapement to run the movement to check on mainspring integrity. The pin on the arbor is canted slightly to the right viewed from the rear of the clock

 

[Peter W]

So your pin is fixed in the arbor not in a collar? Do you think your anchor is original?

You see every one else tells me my anchor is not original. And they may we’ll be right. Chris Nimon says of the dozen he has seen all have a collar.

My anchor and EW both sit off centre set slightly towards the front plate. All other models I have seen anchor and EW sit pretty centred between plates.

Clock on eBay against a blue fabric backcloth with a suspension guard and numbered 23115 is also with collar, suspension guard and “Germany” on back plate. Mine, later at number 24517 has dimples only but no holes for suspension guard screws and no Germany. Yours a slightly later model even than mine has Germany? Suspension guard? No collar on anchor? Thanks if you can help.

 

[lesbradley]

Pretty sure my clock is original. What part of the UK are you in? I have been relatively inactive on these clocks for a year or two due to family issues. Haven't worked out how to PM since the website upgrade, but if you can send me your contact details.

 

[KurtinSA]

Les -

To send a PM, click on your logo/avatar in the upper right. Click on PM/Conversations then Start a New Conversation. Type Peter's username into the participant box then add a title, finally type your message then click on the box to Start a Conversation at the bottom.

Kurt

 

[Peter W]

Les:

I sent you a PM a few days ago. Did you receive it or did I not do something right?

 

[lesbradley]

I am away on holiday and only have limited access to email and internet, back on the 12th

 

[Peter W]

I am away on holiday and only have limited access to email and internet, back on the 12th

I never heard back from you, Les.

 

[Peter W]

Can anyone supply me with measurements for the steel ring, brass collar, please on the anchor arbor?

Is the anchor arbor tapered so collar doesn’t ride up the arbor?

Did this movement come with variations to the anchor?

I know it comes with/without guard and with/without Germany on back plate. I thought all dial were pressed brass with a convex dial but I see in Eric’s photo it’s a standard bezel, dial and hands.

Thanks if anyone can help.

 

[Peter W]

Sorry, forgot photo.

 

[Peter W]

Don’t know why photo is not sharp. Original is.

 

[MUN CHOR-WENG]

Don’t know why photo is not sharp. Original is.

Your picture is sharp when you click on it for an enlarged view.

Mun C W