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JUF "arrow" pendulum, DRGM 403658

etmb61

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My wish list includes a JUF clock the an "arrow" pendulum. I didn't think that would be too difficult to find. I recently acquired the pendulum (pics) and now I'm trying to figure out what to hang it from. Apart from strikers, I've only identified 4 clocks with the same pendulum with serial numbers ranging from about 95000 to 99999. Is this the inclusive range for clocks with this pendulum?

Thanks,

Eric
 

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John Hubby

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Eric, the lowest serial number in my data for this pendulum is 92355 made in December 1909 per my dating info, and the highest is 99909 made about August 1910. I suspect there could be slightly lower numbers for the "start" date, say as low as 91000 which is mid-November 1909 just after the DRGM was granted on November 12, 1909. However, I doubt we will find serial numbers higher than your estimate of 99999 as there were design changes made to the pendulum not long before that when pendulum 39 was introduced.

The first pendulum No. 39, which was made with the same DRGM number as the "Arrow" pendulum but not at all the same design, shows up at serial number 97195 and quickly displaced the "Arrow" pendulum. The transition period covers only about 2,000 clocks which would be reasonable considering they were making 12,000 annually.

There is also a DRGM 455721 granted to JUF on February 14, 1911 that describes a 4-Ball pendulum with a rating disc mechanism that appears to be the basis for pendulum No. 39, however that DRGM has not been found stamped on any pendulum so far. It now seems more likely that a modification was granted to DRGM 402658 that enabled the introduction of pendulum No. 39, but thus far we have not confirmed this. In any event, both pendulums were stamped with DRGM 403658. For pendulum No. 39 that lasted at least to November 1915 based on the original DRGM being valid for its initial three years and extended for another three.

One additional point for the record is that a significant number of No. 39 pendulums with the DRGM 403658 stamp have been recorded on clocks made up to 1923, but only a couple after that year. We don't know if this was due to JUF having over-produced the DRGM version of No. 39 before WWI and then just using them up after the war, or if there was some other reason. Another mystery to unravel.
 
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etmb61

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John,

Thanks for the info. I have a most of movement number 94831, "D" plate, that I'll probably restore into a model 202 for it if I can't eventually find a complete clock.

Eric
 

Fusee power

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In 1910 they had an arrow and not a disc?
 

John Hubby

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In 1910 they had an arrow and not a disc?
The Arrow (you can see it's a double-ended arrow in the photos) for this pendulum is actually the rate adjusting mechanism. Note the "F S" on top of one of the arrow tips to show which direction to turn to speed up or slow down the pendulum. It is connected to a threaded shaft that goes up to the top of the pendulum and when turned shortens or lengthens the shaft causing the arms to go in or out where the crossbar is pinned inside angles slots in each pendulum ball arm. As I mentioned earlier this pendulum design was patented in November 1909; this design was replaced by pendulum No. 39 that has the rating nut at the top of the pendulum but serves the same function as the double arrow. The advantage of the redesign is that it is easier to adjust and more precise due to the graduation marks on the top of the rating nut.
 

Fusee power

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I know this. I had just thought everything pre WWI had a disc type pendulum and not the 4 ball arrow. I did not know they made that in 1910. Guess I was wrong :)

John Hubby, I do not mean to be a jerk at all but my other question went unanswered. I would really appreciate if you gave your input as I see you are the go to Guy for Torsion clocks. I was just wondering if the '49 K&O was more to your liking to a '57-ish Schatz? I always thought Schatz was the better built clock and read so here. I am not sure If pre adjustment feet clocks are more desirable. I am not looking for gain, just want the most collectable items I can get for cheap. I know neither is anything special but It is the best I can do. I apologize this is OT in this thread. I guess I am asking is the older the better regardless of brand? It is not much difference here though but perhaps enough to make a difference. I would sincerely appreciate your feedback. Mainly what i want to know is older better even if it is an arrow and not a disc? Obviously a disc is nicer. I have a couple. Mainly I collect Atmos which I just prefer. I certainly did not mean to upset you by asking this here and hope you are not. Thank you

To the OP that is a nice clock and obviously nicer than the one I just obtained. I hope you get it completed.
 

MartinM

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It's always a bit of give-and-take. Mostly, it's about personal preference. Schatz had many more styles available, over the years, than KundO.
To my eye, the overall profile of the KundO standard has always had a bit of a gangly and plain look to it.
Where regulation of the time is concerned, I think KundO 4-ball pendulum has a better arrangement than JUF/Schatz with little or no preloading of the components in most examples.
I wouldn't worry too much about the arrow pendulum. You're not likely to see one available for a price you'd probably feel comfortable with.
In general, disc pendulum clocks bring more than their ball pendulum counterparts. Other indicators of age are the absence of adjusting feet or a pendulum cup in the base, pins, instead of screws to hold the back plate on, wide plates versus narrow (Post 1951) and suspension brackets/assemblies that are more involved than the simple block held in a slotted adjuster. Base bottoms made of wood are older than those made of tin. Tin bottoms are older than those of painted steel. And steel is older than Bakelite/plastic.
 

Fusee power

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Thank you MartinM. John Hubby said the one in question(mine) was a 1949. It has a steel base but that may have been replaced. Now I see the Arrow. I did not at first. I suppose those are very rare. Well I am happy with my latest find.
 

etmb61

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Update: I finally found a complete clock for the arrow pendulum. The number is 98963. Hope it ships well.

Eric
 
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etmb61

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Here is 98963 for the record. The base was really beat up (or rather down) but otherwise the clock is in good shape. I had a spare base.

98963.jpg back.jpg plate.jpg
It has a little "S" on the back in the lower right.

numbers.jpg
The pendulum is numbered to match the movement.

base1.jpg
Here's the original base. The center is crushed down as is the zinc bottom. It's enough to make the movement lean back and to one side. Any suggestions on how to fix it?

It came without a tension washer for the hands so I replaced that too. While I had the dial off I noticed it has an extra number 6 stamped on the backside of the hour wheel along with the usual punch marks. The plates are also numbered inside with 6's on the lower left corners. If I find any more unusual markings I'll post pictures of those when I go to clean it up.

The crown is not numbered, but the front plate has the extra mounting holes for this type of crown:
dial2.jpg

Eric
 
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