JUF 400 Day sweet clock Runs and Stops - Tried putting clock in beat and more...

Discussion in '400-Day & Atmos' started by SheisDesign, May 9, 2017.

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  1. SheisDesign

    SheisDesign Registered User
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    May 6, 2017
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    Hello,

    First thank you so much in advance. I purchased this beautiful (sweet) JUF clock as an anniversary gift. I have had it since Saturday and have read everything I can on this (sold as 1910 Jahresuhren Fabrik), however, based on reading here (double elephant) it is most likely 1923 plus....

    The clock runs for about 30 minutes and then stops. Everything I read states it is probably out of beat and should be put into beat or the suspension wire is bent, which it looks pretty good to the eye. I have watched videos and have read and understand the concept. It also states that you must adjust the saddle, most show screws and mine does not have that, but a pin. Based on other images of clocks from the period, my pin appears to be a replacement. I am not really sure how to adjust the saddle. When I adjust the up and down (back of saddle) to up, it doesn't stay, it goes right back to View attachment 343018 View attachment 343019 View attachment 343020 View attachment 343021 View attachment 343022 the middle. I go as far as to put it all the way down, all the results the same. Runs for about 30 minutes and stops.

    There is a return policy on the clock, but honestly, we are attached to it and want to have this special clock in our home. Feeling quite sentimental about it.

    See photos attached - any other thoughts please, I would appreciate very much. We just want a working clock and are willing to have it repaired if need be, at least a reasonable repair.

    Thank you so much again!

    Julie
     
  2. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    Assuming the movement is in good condition, the basics are beat and over swing. Beat is defined as equal over swing on both sides, after the escape wheel advances one tooth. Over swing is necessary for the clock to run, and is defined as the continued rotation of the pendulum after escapement. The fork controls over swing and total swing. Lowering the fork increases over swing while decreasing total swing and raising has the opposite effect. Move the fork in VERY small increments. You want about 15° over swing for the clock to work well. The eccentric looks like it may have been fiddled with, so you might have other issues. If you could post a video of the clock running (Youtube, and link here), we might be able to help you more. Oh, and make sure there's a tiny bit of play in the fork.
     
  3. SheisDesign

    SheisDesign Registered User
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    Thank you shutterbug. I really appreciate it. I am not quite sure how to adjust the fork, except by the little lever on top. I took a video as you suggested and it seems to be fluttering, skipping a beat. I agree, it does indeed look to have been fiddled with.

    Here is the link to my youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwNEe_Tqtr8

    Thank you again -

    Julie

    [video=youtube;FwNEe_Tqtr8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwNEe_Tqtr8[/video]
     
  4. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
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    #4 John Hubby, May 9, 2017
    Last edited: May 9, 2017
    Julie, welcome to the NAWCC Message Board! Thanks for posting your inquiry and the photos of your JUF clock. Regarding when it was made, the two logo stamps on the movement back plate were first used together in early 1923 when August Schatz Sr. brought in his sons to run the company, and discontinued by March 1927 following his death in February that year.

    I think you aren't understanding how to adjust the saddle to set the beat. The lever that you mention is an extension of the upper block of the suspension unit, and it is not adjustable. What you need to do to set the beat is to rotate the cylindrical part that the block sits in (that part is the "saddle"), either to the right or left as needed to obtain equal overswing in each direction of pendulum rotation. The saddle on this clock is a friction fit in the upper bracket, but can be moved using pliers.

    The pin that holds the upper block in the saddle may not be original but will work just fine.
     
  5. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    There's a good chance that even with the beat and fork set correctly, the clock will not run for a long period of time. The bushing holes on the back of the plate appear to have some sort of corrosion in them. That suggests that the clock is in need of a complete service.

    Nice classic clock, though!

    Kurt
     
  6. SheisDesign

    SheisDesign Registered User
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    Thank you Gentlemen for your words and sage advice.

    Though, I have no idea "The saddle on this clock is a friction fit in the upper bracket, but can be moved using pliers." Where this is in fact. I took a risk earlier when I believe I misread Shutterbug and adjusted the fork with tiny tweezer like pliers. At first I tightened the fork and that stopped the clock and then I opened them up and the clock has been running now for almost 4 hours, a first since I have had it.

    During this time, I have been adjusting the time by rotating the F----> and <------S round disc mechanism. It is a few minutes fast as of now. I have no idea why it is working and I will NEVER touch this clock again.

    Here is the bottom line for me. Shutterbug said it looks like the clock has been fiddled with (eccentric look) and Kurt says that the bushings appear to have corrosion, though I cannot tell. Is it worth it? I don't feel as if I have overpaid (at all) for a working clock, in fact, I feel really pleased with the cost. BUT, if what Kurt says and it should have a complete service, what does that even entail? I would imagine this could cost $250 - $300... Is it worth it or am I just better off finding another sweet restored lovely clock (similar) for $400?

    Is this clock as rare as the person I bought it from claims it to be?

    Your thoughts are deeply appreciated.

    Julie
     
  7. roughbarked

    roughbarked Registered User

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    I work off a price list that is more than a decade old. Our customers are important to us and the repair side of the business has never made a profit, according to the business owners. I would probably not charge more than $200 to repair this. I doubt rarity comes into it. Some of these are uncommon compared to others but none of them were ever rare, to my humble knowledge. These are clocks that should only be "fiddled with" by experienced repairers.
     
  8. SheisDesign

    SheisDesign Registered User
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    Hi Rough,

    Well.. Are you talking AUD$ or USD$? I am hoping AUD, because that translates to about $150. I have spent much time in your part of the world. In fact, I will be retiring there in about 5 years.

    Thank you for your thoughts on the clock. As of now, she is still running, though fast. Hopefully I can get this figured out, but I will still look for a clock repair person. Not so easy where I live.

    Julie
     
  9. roughbarked

    roughbarked Registered User

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    Yes, AUD. If it is only running fast that is the problem then the clock should be in reasonable health. You can try using the regulating nut but if that fails then it will need a service and possibly the correct suspension spring.
     
  10. SheisDesign

    SheisDesign Registered User
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    I am assuming the regulating nut is the fast and slow dial at the bottom. I have been doing that and it's still a few minutes fast. I will try and find a clock repair person. I appreciate everything.

    Julie
     
  11. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    If it's running, I don't think it will need immediate attention from a pro. The fork was probably too tight, and loosening it made the clock run. If you have the fast/slow all the way to slow, and the clock is still gaining time, then the suspension spring can be thinned a little, and that will slow it down.
     
  12. SheisDesign

    SheisDesign Registered User
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    Call it ignorant novice luck. Clock ran all night and gained about 45 minutes. I brought it down more and we will see. I don't really understand how to thin the suspension spring, nor do I think I will have novice luck again.

    Thank you Shutterbug for your help and advice, maybe I should buy a 400 day repair book and give a hand at all of this. It is really a sweet sweet clock.

    Julie
     
  13. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    Your clock should use a .004" suspension spring. If you use search, there are lots of posts here about how to thin a suspension spring. Not too hard to do :) If you still have some adjustment left, you may get it to keep time as is.
    The best book is Horolovar's "400 Day Clock Repair Guide" 10th Edition. It is available at several suppliers. Here's one.
     
  14. roughbarked

    roughbarked Registered User

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    To measure .004" she'll need a micrometer. Probably easier to assume it is correct or simply buy a new suspension unit.

    Putting some oil on the clock will change things.
     
  15. MartinM

    MartinM Registered User
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    While all clocks experience more wear when run in a state where a good cleaning is called for, this type of clock operates so slowly, compared to most, that wear is rarely a major concern. If it's freed-up enough to run, enjoy it and just accept that it won't run a full year on a full winding and that the total rotation of the pendulum may be somewhat reduced.
    A service will likely cost a bit less than outright purchase of a similar clock in freshly serviced condition. Depending on the shop, the cost for a basic service (disassembly, cleaning, reassembly and adjustment) will likely run between US$50 and US$150. For a total restoration with all the brass shiny and bright, you can figure on doubling those figures. Maybe slightly less. As was said, earlier, yours is less common, but not rare.
    The best way for a novice to see if their clock is in beat is to watch the minute hand and pendulum while the clock is running. The minute hand for this clock will move eight times between each minute marker on the dial. Watch for the hand to move slightly forward (you may also hear the 'tick' sound of the escapement) then begin a steady count to see how long it takes for the pendulum to come to a stop in that direction.
    When it does the same thing in the other direction, count the time between the tick and the stopping of the pendulum and compare the two counts you took. if they are equal, your clock is in beat and running with maximum power available via that particular adjustment. There are MANY other adjustments that affect the power available to turn the pendulum.
    If the counts differ, it's because the pendulum's rotation isn't quite centered and you adjust that by turning that split post at the top of the back of the clock where the suspension spring is attached. It's mounted in the bracket it's attached to in a way that allows it to be turned. You would turn it an almost imperceptible amount in the direction associated with the smaller count you took. Any time you're fussing with anything related to the suspension spring, you need to be very careful because they are quite delicate and are the most often broken part on these clocks.
    I doubt you'll need to replace or thin your spring. You or the previous owner probably just adjusted the regulator too far toward "F". Keep adjusting it toward the "S" being sure to move in ever smaller increments as you approach the correct setting. If you go too far and it begins running too slow, you'll want to purposefully adjust it to be too fast and begin the process, again. Trying to find the sweet spot after going too far is basically an exercise in frustration as the parts involved have a lot of 'slack' unless preloaded from only one adjustment direction. Going from Fast to Slow is better because of the need to grasp the pendulum and, if you're going from Fast to Slow, the adjuster will be forcing the arms of the pendulum outward where you have less chance to make an inadvertent adjustment by simply grabbing the pendulum.
     
  16. SheisDesign

    SheisDesign Registered User
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    Thank you all once again for your wise advice. I really believe I had dumb luck getting this clock to even run. Misunderstanding about the fork and opening it up. I could have broken the poor thing and thankfully I did not, so I am grateful for my misunderstood advice. I am not sure still about the beat, but I will try this if the clock is still running fast when I wake up tomorrow. I let it run for about 3 hours today and it only gained 3 minutes, which is HUGE and now will see what happens by tomorrow morning after adjust it a bit more in the S direction.

    I am absolutely in love with the clock and all her natural patina and color. I don't want to ruin (IMO) her appearance by shining her up. I will look at having her cleaned just so her gears run smoothly. As far as whether or not I have a micrometer... A what? No, I do not have a micrometer or any other tools which would require the delicacy the clock needs. I would also not feel comfortable changing the suspension wire, though I probably could, I am fairly patient.

    I am just happy right now and really grateful to all of you. I sat over the weekend too intimated to write. I waited foolishly and you all were so helpful. You really all saved me and saved this beautiful clock.

    NOW onto my next clock purchase... Not sure about another Anniversary clock, this one put me over the edge (laughing).

    Julie
     
  17. roughbarked

    roughbarked Registered User

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    #17 roughbarked, May 10, 2017
    Last edited: May 10, 2017
    As for winding the clock. Try winding it twice a year rather than once as this will keep the mainspring in optimum tension. A drop of oil on each pallet face may also improve the running and timekeeping.
     
  18. SheisDesign

    SheisDesign Registered User
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    Thank you rough* - I really appreciate your advice and all of the advice I have been given. I woke up this morning and my beautiful clock is keeping PERFECT time. I am just in awe of all of your kindness.

    I have made a modest donation to the NAWCC website (here) in gratitude for the help I have received. You have made this wedding anniversary a perfect one for us. Keep doing the great work you are doing.

    Julie
     
  19. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    You have the bug now, Julie. We're looking forward to seeing your next project! :D
     
  20. SheisDesign

    SheisDesign Registered User
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    I'm a little obsessed right now. I work from home and find myself distracted from work checking the clock every 5 minutes to be sure it's perfect. A little neurotic. Woke up this morning and she is keeping perfect time to the minute. I am thrilled.

    Next?
     
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