Josh Johnson

Discussion in 'European & Other Pocket Watches' started by Keith R..., May 5, 2015.

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  1. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
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    I think we have to be very careful in trying to determine the dates of movements from maker's marks, particularly when wecannot be absolutely sure who made the mark.

    The records of the Liverpool database identify three (possibly four, but I think one may be a duplicate) individuals who are potential candidates for the W Abbott who signed these movements - on the basis that they may have been active in the middle of the C19th. None of whom are listed as frame makers, but as we know it is not only the initial frame maker signed pillar plates.

    The most complete record and possible the most likely candidate is the one that PL has identified. The full database record being ...

    Farnworth Chapel - Mary baptised 26/4/1830 - wife Margaret. Isabella baptised 11/12/1831.Mary baptised 5/7/1835. George William baptised 6/11/1836. Joshua baptised 19/8/1838. Mary baptised 26/7/1840. John baptised 10/7/1842. Daniel baptised 13/9/1843. * Hale parish register - married Mary Finch 13/8/1849. * Farnworth parish register - James baptised 9/2/1853. Elizabeth + James baptised 1/10/1857. Robert baptised 10/7/1859. * 1841 census (Widnes) - watchmaker aged 30 of Pepper Street. Margaret aged 25 + 4 - Isabella aged 8, William aged 5, Joshua aged 3 + Mary aged 11 months. * 1851 census - watch movement maker aged 42 of High Road to Warrington. Mary aged 21 + 5 William aged 15, Joshua aged 12, Mary aged 10, Daniel aged 7 + Hannah aged 8 months. * 1861 census - watchmaker aged 51 of Upton. Mary aged 32 + 4 - Hannah aged 11, James aged 8, Elizabeth aged 5 + Robert aged 2. * 1871 census (Appleton) - watch fussee maker aged 62 of 2 Appleton Street. Mary aged 42 + 2 James aged 18 + Robert aged 14

    To which PL has added the marriage in 1829

    There is an earlier watch & clock maker based in Prescot. It is possible that this individual continued to be active into the middle of the century.

    St Peters (Liverpool) - married Jane Hollingworth 8/11/1812. * Prescot parish register - George baptised 3/10/1813. James baptised 25/12/1815. William baptised 8/2/1818. John baptised 3/12/1820. Joseph baptised 28/9/1823. * Houghton Street Methodist Chapel - Nathan born 15/11/1826 baptised 24/12/1826. Jane born 2/4/1829 baptised 7/6/1829.
    Finally, there is an individual who was an apprentice in the 1851 census and who ended his career in Coventry

    1851 census - apprentice watchmaker aged 16 of Gorsey Lane. * 1861 census (Upton) - watchmaker aged 26 of Upton Hamlet. Elizabeth aged 27 + Isabella aged 6 months. * 1881 census (Coventry) - watch escapement maker aged 56 of Arden Street. Eliza aged 63 + 5 - Eliza aged 30. Fanny aged 29. Thomas aged 26. Martha aged 23 + John aged 21.
    John
     
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  2. PapaLouies

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    How do you delete a typed message before sending?
     
  3. gmorse

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    Hi PL,

    If you decide not to post it at all, just back out of the page you're on. The system will retain what you've typed but only in that thread as far as I can see; it won't be posted unless you click on the 'Post Reply' button. When you want to reply to that thread again, you can delete what appears, (which looks greyed out at first), by either highlighting all the text by pressing CTRL with A and then the Delete key, or just putting the cursor at the end and using the Backspace key. This works for most common text editors but if you have something different please expand on your exact problem.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
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  4. PapaLouies

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    Hi John,
    I think it likely the watches in question date to the late 1840s. Your man from Prescot, his last child was born in 1800 so a little long in the tooth to be a candidate.
    Regards, PL
    P.S. thanks, Graham
     
  5. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
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    Sorry PL, little confused, but my reading is that last child born 1829, married in 1812 say he was 20, so by 1840 he would be ~50. Irrespective, I was simply just making a point of caution that there is some doubt as to who exactly the W Abbott was and therefore difficult to be certain about the dates.

    John
     
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  6. Lychnobius

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    PapaLouies, thank you for this information. Is there any chance of your supplying some images for No. 19511? As I think you know, I like to record such details as cock decoration and lettering styles.

    Oliver Mundy.
     
  7. PapaLouies

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    Hi Oliver,
    I have One Joseph Johnson movement and four Josh Johnson movements. I plan to post photos of all five movements soon. The movement numbers are 10,027, 15,031, 19,511, 21,029 and 25,680. Movement 19,511 has a dial plate that was never drilled for dial feet and an unfinished balance cock as does 21,029.
    All but 15,031 have fenestrated balance cocks.
    Regards, PL
     
  8. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    #758 Keith R..., Dec 24, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2018
    Well he's in, definitely an 18 size, as outside case diameter is 56MM. Ticking in all
    positions and keeping time with my Richard Ward lever. This might be my first 19J
    carry watch. The crown button works, releasing the back case lid. Excellent buy,
    serviced at 19J.

    Now this one is SN# 14903 conventional train and my other 14xxx, is a Liverpool
    runner. This one is re-cased in a sterling case of early 1890's. It has a dust cap.

    EDIT, I have a cold, camera shake on the case back shot. Just have Ray chew me
    out, I'm due one.:D

    Edit #2, I would like folks to weigh in if one thinks the split compensated wheel was
    part of original watch or an upgrade. Date guess, 1842. Note, my other #14xxx is in
    an 1877 hallmarked case, with movement # in case.

    Edit #3, two other watches came in. The Arnold & Dent and a James Poole. I have
    the Poole running and looks like the Dent needs a day of rest for shipping jitters.

    Keith R...

    100_3722 (800x600).jpg 100_3725 (800x600).jpg jj811 (800x800).jpg jj814 (800x800).jpg
     
  9. PapaLouies

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    Hi Keith,
    14903 appears to have a Swiss style inverted balance.
    There are no 14,xxx 19 jewel watches with fenestrated balance cocks in Oliver's database.
    I think 1842 is a bit early for 19 jewels.
    Regards, PL
     
  10. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    #760 Keith R..., Dec 25, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2018
    PL, I have not given any info to Oliver on #14903, I just bought it. As for 1842, I'm just going
    by what's the closest thing in Oliver's data base.

    Here's a side by side comparison of my two 14xxx Johnson's.

    Keith R...

    jj811 (800x800).jpg jj173 (500x375).jpg
     
  11. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    #761 Keith R..., Dec 28, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2018
    Now here's something funny. I usually, if I have one flipped up and out, I take pics
    for my friends. Well I was sleepy after my Ham sandwich and it was three hours
    until start time. I adjusted the reg arm, it was running 6 minutes fast, in 24 hrs.

    So I shall wait again until about 1:42 PM to fire it up, on this 19J conventional train
    watch. If you guys see me on this board (my green dot lit up) start warning me to
    fire up the 19J Josh Johnson.

    ***I don't like setting hands with a key, unless within 5 minutes, it loosens them up.

    Keith R...

    jj813 (800x800).jpg jj811 (800x800).jpg
     
  12. PapaLouies

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    Hi Oliver,
    As promised, Josh Johnson 19,511 a Liverpool Runner. Please compare the pillar plate markings and the shape of the barrel arbor projection with 19,953.
    I think the following will establish the approximate date of production for these movements.
    L.H.D.B.
    Name: Abbott William.
    Town: Widnes.
    1851 Census watch movement maker aged 42 of High Road to Warrington.

    The United States Post-office Guide, 1851.
    ENGLISH & HAWS,
    GOLD WATCH DIAL.
    Manufacturers,
    No. 65 Ann street, New-York.

    The New York City Directory, 1851-52.
    ENGLISH & HAWS, dial makers, 65 Ann.

    Wilson's Business Directory of New-York City, 1853-54.
    Watch Dial Makers.
    Haws George Jr. 65 Ann.

    IMG_1773.JPG IMG_1774.JPG IMG_1775.JPG IMG_1776.JPG IMG_1777.JPG IMG_1778.JPG IMG_1779.JPG IMG_1780.JPG


    DSCF0153[1].JPG DSCF0154[1].JPG DSCF0156[2].JPG

    Regards, PL
     
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  13. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    #763 Keith R..., Dec 28, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2018
    If you look at PL's dial on 19953 he can put the movement to 1851. His dial is original,
    which we know mine on #14903 is not original. Most of the dials for Johnson's I have
    seen into the 40's, were plain white and the early ones in gold cases were gold. If I find
    a footed plain white dial, on a dead Josh Johnson movement 14xxx, I'll grab it for the dial.

    I adjusted regulation on the J. Johnson and I'm timing it now. Note, 6 minutes in 24 hours
    I moved it at no load 1.5 marks toward slow. Seems to be on the money now. So folks
    know how I count, that's the mark in-between the next Crows foot.

    Keith R...

    100_3732 (800x600).jpg 100_3739 (800x600).jpg
     
  14. PapaLouies

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    Hi Keith,
    19,953 is not mine, see page 12 post #571. PL
     
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  15. Lychnobius

    Lychnobius Registered User

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    PapaLouies, thank you for the images of Johnson 19511. As you imply, it does look as if we can date this to the early 1850s, since George Haws Jr. (I think I can just see the 'J' in the dial signature) was apparently not in business on his own before 1852. This is valuable information.

    Oliver Mundy.
     
  16. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    Oliver and all. I sent my buddy PL an article dated May 1843, with regards to the insolvency
    of Mary Johnson, (wife of Joseph). Now PL and I agree that Josh Johnson's post May 1843,
    have another owner named Bold.

    So for Josh Johnson's post May 1843, what do we call them? Josh Johnson (Bold)?

    Keith R...
     
  17. John Matthews

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    #767 John Matthews, Jan 2, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2019
    Hi Keith - is this the indenture of assignment as published in the London Gazette here ...

    upload_2019-1-2_23-31-57.png

    in which case perhaps Josh Johnson (Bold & Condliffe) - or do you have further information?

    I assume this means that Mary was declared bankrupt and all her assets were assigned to Bold and Condliffe. Creditors would then look to the assignees to realise the assets and distribute any funds raised. To understand the significance of this event, we need know what assets were transferred and indeed to understand an earlier entry in the Gazette ...

    upload_2019-1-3_0-0-19.png

    Research is needed ...

    EDIT - Keith you refer to a date in May, wheres the Gazette notice of assignees is 12 Sept 1843 - does your paper have more information - any mention of assets?

    John
     
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  18. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    John, I'll look in my file, I think that's all I have for Mary.

    Keith R...
     
  19. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi John,

    I wonder if that's the James Condliffe who's noted for his fine skeleton clocks?

    Regards,

    Graham
     
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  20. John Matthews

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    #770 John Matthews, Jan 3, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2019
    Hi Graham - yes the very same I believe.

    upload_2019-1-3_10-7-22.png

    I have just performed a quick search for both of the named assignees and concluded that it was indeed the reputed clockmaker. I was about ask the question whether there was any significance in the occupations of the two named in the notice. As I could find no reference to the watch output of Condliffe, but many references to his clocks and I believe, he and Bold, a watch jeweller, are likely to have been significant creditors, I wondered if, Bold hadn't been paid for jewelling watch movements and Condliffe's clocks had been retailed by Mary - stock sold on before being Condliffe was paid?


    John
     
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  21. Allan C. Purcell

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    John -Graham- there was only one James Condliff in Liverpool from 1813 -1862.(In the trade) If you remember he was living in rented accommodation, in Benns Garden-that belonged to William Robinson-his next door neighbour was Henry Hornby-Richard 2´s uncle.Its all in the Hornby articles attached to this board. I would also like to thank you John for the information on Robert Roskell above.that is one piece I did not have. Just goes to show how Roskell had his finger on all the watch and clock industry of Liverpool for many years- from the time he married Tarltons daughter c1800. The Tarlton Family at that time owned a large part of Liverpool according to Picton-("In The eighteeth centuryWater Street was a favorite place of residence for the higher class of Liverpool merchants; The names of many old Liverpool families being found in connection with it , such as the Corleses; Formbys Blundells; Cases;Lieghs; and Tarltons.Tarlton was not going to marry his daughter to some shop keeper-Robert Roskell was Landed Gertry- a case of putting two fortunes together. ( I have to be honest here-I always wanted to buy a Condliff longcase-one of these days maybe??)

    Anyway this is about the Johnsons-has Keith is forever telling me-I have come to the conclusion that Johnson 4551 is a fake-probably made in Coventry-has we all know many of the Liverpool watchmakers complained about those in Coventry-though that is another story. Oliver can scratch 4551 out of his list-I would say the movement I have is c1850.


    IMG_6604.JPG

    IMG_6539.JPG This is for PL -he likes M.I.Tobias watches.
     
  22. Lychnobius

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    In regard to 'Johnsons' which are or appear to be inauthentic, my principle is to let them remain in the database while marking them with a red star and adding a summary of the reasons why I feel they cannot be accepted. No. 4551 is already so treated and will continue to be listed on those terms. Some items so designated appear to be just as good and just as English as the real thing, and I feel it is at least possible that, at times of exceptional demand or during severe business problems, the factory may have so far relaxed its standards as to 'outsource' finished movements and sell them as its own; these would naturally show some 'wrong' characteristics. Unless further evidence renders it possible to guarantee that this never happened, I shall let the red-starred pieces keep their places while remaining under surveillance, so to speak. The fact that there are two movements both numbered 30747, neither of which gives me any obvious ground for rejection, shows how unwise it would be to be dogmatic in the present state of our (or at least my) knowledge.

    Oliver Mundy.
     
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  23. Keith R...

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    #773 Keith R..., Jan 3, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2019
    Well, after that long left turn, let's have a look at the question in hand. What do we call
    true Johnson examples post May 1843, (I'll make the assumption someday our data
    base will have specific watches tied to May 1843), what will we call those examples?

    Here's my vote, Bold is a jeweler and I don't collect silver spoons. Condliffe is a registered
    clock maker and if he can make a clock, he can make a watch. We either call them Condi
    Johnson's. Or we could just call them Josh Johnson with an *asterisk's as in, *Joseph
    Johnson, 25 Church Street. I say we do the asterisk in Oliver's data base, post May 1843.
    Oliver of course would have to add a footnote for the asterisk and it's meaning in the DB.

    What say you fellow collectors and Oliver, CEO of the Johnson data base? Note, I think
    movements post 16,000 would definitely be, post May 1843.

    Edit, John, PL's comment back to one of my PM's indicated some intolerance to
    doing nothing post Sept 1843. But with you I agree, so we now have a go forward
    position. kr...

    Keith R...

    100_3732 (800x600).jpg
     
  24. Omexa

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    Hi, I was just looking in a Draw and I found these two movements; I purchased them for the Jewels; now that I look closely they could be restored. The Josh Johnson is Serial Number 13,497. Regards Ray

    20190104_002625.jpg
     
  25. John Matthews

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    I think that it is not necessary to have a different designation for those movements that were post 1843. Unless we know the details, we should not make assumptions as to how it impacted the 'Johnson' business. I do not believe either Bold or Condliffe had an active role in the Johnson business - they were Mary's principal creditors and as such they would have disposed of Mary's assets. I think it is worth referring to the family tree thread - which is where the information we are discussing was posted.

    John
     
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  26. Allan C. Purcell

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    Oliver that is very well put-and if that is what you want for your file I agree-my thoughts at the time I posted above, was that the file was about THE Joseph Johnson Liverpool till 1827, and then his wife Mary untill she had to sell out. To me anything else with that name and the address 25 Church Street is a fake-playing on the good name of Jos. Johnson. If for instance I were to do the same has you with the Roskell file I would have to record about 20,000 fake watches. If you look on Ebay at any time you will only find a couple or so Robert Roskell waches-and ten to fiteen Fakes.My file is about the Robert Roskell, (d, 1847) and though I have included some of the later watches by his son when at Hunt & Roskell, they are only an example of what was to come-and later people who are interested can take It from there. On this point I agree with John- 1843 is a cut off date. Though your file Oliver,is a tool many of us really enjoy, and is still of great interest-and when I come across these watches I will still send you the information-I thought the number 4551 alone would have been enough for the Red card. Thank you Oliver.
     
  27. PapaLouies

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    I do not agree with the name (Bold).
    Regards, PL
     
  28. Tom McIntyre

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    i would think that a company, even though strongly associated with an individual is an entity in its own right and retains its identity when it changes ownership. I wish that some individual rights did not extend to business entities that are immortal and have the ability to accumulate great wealth. :(
     
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  29. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    It appears the ball game as changed since that Henry F. Piaget book raised its head- I think though something good could out of the discussions.
     
  30. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    I'm not sure how the ball game has changed. I'm not sure I've got enough background
    on this author.

    Keith R...
     
  31. Allan C. Purcell

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    I thought you would have read Zedrics and Johns thread-"Which maker did, and did not, export to the USA mid 1800´s" That to me is another Ball Game. The Johnson at 25 Church Street is no longer viable.
     
  32. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    #782 Keith R..., Jan 10, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2019
    Allan, I assure you Josh Johnson of 25 Church Street died March 3, 1827. Mary Johnson
    owned the assets of Josh Johnson's estate until September of 1843. Two previously named
    creditors came out as winners in the estate at Bankruptcy trial, however I have not read
    where the "Brand name Josh Johnson" changed to any other name through to the 1860's.
    I have two pre 1827 Johnson's and value wise, I'm well pleased.

    The other two, both serviced are not worth much money. As a collector, I advise anyone to
    go after any valid Joseph Johnson 25 Church Street pre-1827. This would include any
    Verges, cylinders, rack levers, levers, duplexes, chronometers for this maker, pre-1827.
    The two I bought post 1827, are carry watches for me.

    So what does this author have to do, or say, about Joseph Johnson, 25 Church Street
    Liverpool, pre-1827 watches?

    Keith R...

    100_2349 (800x600).jpg
     
  33. Tom McIntyre

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    bio_piaget_henry_f.pdf I think this sketch of Henry F. Piaget is the person whose opinions are being discussed. If it is the same, it would appear his life's literary work was to discuss the difference between hand made objects of worth and machine made variations on the same designs.

    Reprints of the book are available for under $10.
     

    Attached Files:

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  34. PapaLouies

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    Henry F. Piaget was working in England when Joseph Johnson died in 1827. Please note, the M.I. Tobias & Co. Signature Flourish on two Joseph Johnson watches #4529 and #5731.
    See the Wm Robinson Thread: page 4, Post #191.
    Regards, PL
     
  35. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    Guys, if a signature flourish was not resolved for two Liverpool watches in the
    WM Robinson thread, why not reopen that thread and continue the dialogue?

    This Piaget guy first surfaced in my London watches of Dwerrihouse, now Allan
    has him morphing to Liverpool.

    Why not Allan, PL or zedric, open up a new thread for Piaget and flesh out
    what is at issue from 1832 to 1838 that is causing all this buzz, instead of tossing
    it to another watch of the period, (London or Liverpool). Most collectors make
    their observations based on historical data. Throwing a curve ball on a particular
    maker to me causes confusion. Why not take zedric's thread and run with Piaget?

    I don't have an issue with Allan, PL or zedric. I just would like whoever is behind
    Piaget to do a stand alone thread to reach a general conclusion. This should be
    a Macro approach. I consider a watch by Dwerrihouse (London) or a watch by
    Johnson (Liverpool) a micro approach, to what most are claiming is a general
    issue, across all watches exported to the US.

    Just my opinion

    Keith R...
     
  36. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    To be fair to PL, he has been delving into MI Tobias and Robinson for years, irrespective
    of the Piaget guy. I just think he has lacked available documentation for a call either way.
    To me, it makes no difference, they are quality watches any way you cut it.

    Keith R...
     
  37. PapaLouies

    PapaLouies Registered User
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    Keith the Thread is Wm Robinson not WM Robinson.
    Regards, PL
     
  38. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    Got it, thanks PL.

    Keith R...
     
  39. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    I just sent a long narrow balance cock 79xx to Oliver, from that famous auction site.

    Keith R...
     
  40. PapaLouies

    PapaLouies Registered User
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    The following three watches are likely made by the same House around 1850 and have nothing to do with the Joseph Johnson enterprise, including Sons and Grandsons.

    IMG_1781.JPG IMG_1782.JPG IMG_1783.JPG

    IMG_1784.JPG IMG_1785.JPG

    Owner Papalouies.

    P1100317[1].JPG P1100319[1].jpg

    Thread: Joseph Johnson with Historical dial "HMS" Brisk. Post #1.

    18022 [1].jpg 18022 [2].jpg 18022 [3].jpg

    Thread: Joseph Johnson Railway Time Keeper. Post #1.

    Regards, PL
     
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  41. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    Interesting PL, they appear to have solid compensated balance wheels.

    Keith R...
     
  42. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
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    It is best not to use the word "compensated" to describe a solid balance wheel. Later ones do have screws for poising and possibly weight adjustment. Compensated is almost always shorthand for temperature compensated.
     
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  43. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    You're right Tom. Seldom do we see them and call them anything. I volunteer we call them
    sold balance wheels, with poising screws (just takes more words, but we're already typing).:)

    Keith R...
     
  44. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
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    The earlier ones without the screws used drilling and/or shaving the underside of the rim for the same purpose. You even sometimes find drill marks on the bottom of the flat polished steel ones that were much more carefully made.
     
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  45. PapaLouies

    PapaLouies Registered User
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    They have un-cut bi-metallic balance wheels.
     
  46. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    We could probably wordsmith these wheels to death. Proof, take the gold screws out and
    we're back to uncut metallic balance wheels (unless the wheels were whittled on). I'm not
    sure if Tom has a name for the drilling/shaving the underside.

    Thanks PL as always.

    Keith R...
     
  47. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
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    You can have a wheel with multiple metals in the design. Hamilton made a bimetallic for their Model 21 marine chronometer that had a solid rim. It is possible that someone else made one also. In that case, the arm and the rim are different metals and there is a bimetallic change in moment of inertia with temperature.

    If you make a balance out of two metal layers with a different metal cross arm, you will also have an ovalizing action. I am not aware of anyone using such a design for compensation.

    Since the term bimetallic is used almost exclusively for a cut arm balance for temperature compensation, I think it would be best to adopt a different name for the odd ball ones with two metals and a solid rim.

    If the balance is using ovalizing for temperature compensation, that should probably be its name. i.e.ovalizing balance.

    If it has multiple metals but is not designed to ovalize, it should be called a solid balance.

    Monometallic balance is currently used for the late balances used with "constant elasticity" balance springs.

    I really believe the only name that should be used for the early uncut balances is solid balance. They can also be flat, round, wide or whatever additional descriptive terms seem appropriate including "with poising screws."
     
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  48. PapaLouies

    PapaLouies Registered User
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    There are many similar features on these watches other than balance wheels.
    Regards, PL
     
  49. Lychnobius

    Lychnobius Registered User

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    PapaLouies, thank you for these. I already had entries for 12003 (with the ship on the dial) and 18022; 10027, however, is new to me. As you suggest, there is a distinct family resemblance among them. I would date them to around 1860; real Johnsons within this range of serial numbers would have been at least twenty years older, with flush seconds dials and countersunk cock-screws.

    Oliver Mundy.
     
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  50. PapaLouies

    PapaLouies Registered User
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    Hi Oliver,

    This may be of some interest, a Josh Johnson 9494 not signed 25 Church Street. It's signed Liverpool but I think likely Coventry.
    This watch is 17 Jewel and has Garnet Jewels.
    Regards, PL

    IMG_1768.JPG IMG_1769.JPG IMG_1770.JPG IMG_1771.JPG
     
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