Josh Johnson

Discussion in 'European & Other Pocket Watches' started by Keith R..., May 5, 2015.

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  1. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    BTW team, I was not looking for a Josh Johnson pocket watch when #7771 surfaced,
    it was headed for the scrapper. So my thought was to save the case and watch. I made
    an offer, the guy took it and the rest is history.

    Keith R...
     
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  2. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    I thought Page 15 needed some Johnson's. Here is Josh Johnson of 25 Church Street and
    Joseph Johnson of 87 Brownlow Hill, (no kin, but both are in our data base).

    Keith R...

    103_0681 (800x600).jpg
     
  3. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    s-004.jpg Jos. Johnson 25 Church Street Liverpool. Can you make out the number-I think it is 17471?? Regards, Allan
     
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  4. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    Gorgeous Plates Allan!!!

    Please see NAWCC thread "Joseph Johnson Railway Timekeeper" created July 2, 2016 by
    BigBear. It is SN# 18022 and sports a dial for these 19 jewel beauties. According to Oliver's data
    base, yours is about circa 1854, for SN# 17471.

    Congrats!!

    Keith R...
     
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  5. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Hi Keith,

    I decided not to buy.-to late a date-bought 4551 instead. Will tell you more about it when it arrives. Thanks, Allan.
     
  6. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    So who owns the movement in the photo?

    Keith R...
     
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  7. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User

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    It didn't sell the first time it appeared on ebay a month or so ago, the seller reposted it and I still don't think it sold. It has been re-cased by the way.

    John
     
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  8. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    Allan, obviously there's no permission from the owner. Could you please work with Martin
    on images in post #703?

    Keith R...
     
  9. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Only one image-from my data base. If Marty wants to talk to me I am sure he will , he does need promting from you Keith
     
  10. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    Allan, Martin is part of our team. Getting an understanding that at least
    on the European side we adhere to the following:

    No images from active auctions.
    No images without permission of owner.

    I'm not contacting Martin, I'm not the Josh Johnson thread police. But we have enjoyed
    this thread for some time and I'd like to see it continue without issue. I was on a thread last
    night and my buddy Dave C. had to lock it it down.

    Keith R...
     
  11. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    Thanks Allan, now back to basics. 1840's Josh Johnson #14201 25 Church St,
    17 jewel Liverpool Runner. I'd prefer one of John Matthews (Johnson) watches
    for the next pic, (or Oliver's 15xxx).

    Keith R...

    100_2349 (800x600).jpg
     
  12. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User

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    Hi Keith,

    These may not be the examples that you were looking for ... but Graham has recently directed me to a series of marks that are described by Betts in his tome on the Greenwich chronometers. In the chapter covering the manufacture of chronometers there is a section covering the batch production method applied to movements. He describes how the movements were grouped in batches of four, so that as the work progressed, each element of the work was performed on a set of four movements. In order to ensure that individual movements in the batch could be identified a series of punch marks were used. Betts observes that at busy periods, two batches may have been worked on together, in which case, again a series of four dots would be used, but with an additional dot 'close by' to distinguish that the movements were part of the second batch, i.e. movements 5 to 8 of the two combined batches of 4.

    Graham has discovered that these marks can also be found on non-chronometer movements from the early part of the C19th. This has caused me to do a quick search through the photographs of my collection. As a result I have found what I believe to be 'batch marks' on the plates of two Johnson movements. We have also observed these marks on other Liverpool signed watches of this period.

    An example of the 4th movement in a single batch of 4

    20180420 002.jpg 20180420 014.jpg 20180420 014-2.jpg

    and from a busy period, an example of the the 8th movement from the two combined batches of 4.

    20170928 007.jpg 20170928 005.jpg 20170928 005-2.jpg

    These are my preliminary interpretations - more examples will help ...

    Betts illustrates an example where the punch marks are triangles and I believe I have an example where the movement maker has used a double triangle punch that resembles an hourglass.

    John
     
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  13. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Very interesting theme, but the question arises was this a standard practice-or just a specific movement maker. I had a good look through my old movements but found none. As anyne found these marks on London movements- Another qusestion, who put them on there the maker or finnishers? Though the time was not waisted I found one you might like-sorry its not Johnson- Its William Robinson of Liverpool. On the plate you can see JW- 16 -O and then two markes and under the eye glass one can see there were there before the guilding. any ideas? Allan.

    IMG_6539.JPG IMG_6540.JPG
     
  14. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi John,

    I've found one possible example in my box of old parts movements, signed for Frodsham with a frame maker's mark of ES, (probably Edward Saggerson, Prescot); it has two small punched dots in the rim of the hollow back pillar plate. None of the others, dating roughly from the last two quarters of the 19th century, which are variously by Wycherley, Berry etc, as well as some by Coventry makers, have these marks.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
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  15. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User

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    Here is a selection of batch marks I have discovered from a very quick search of my Lancashire movements ...

    Johnson #9326 - red starred on the database ... 2nd movement of batch of 4 (2 dots)

    20171012 004.jpg 20171011 004.jpg 20171011 006.jpg 20171011 007.jpg 20171011 007-2.jpg

    Beesley #24424 ... 4th movement of batch of 4 (4 narrow triangles)

    04.jpg 20170829 002.jpg

    Kelvey & Holland #1892 ... 1st movement of 4 (single equilateral triangle)

    20170621 002.jpg 20170621 003.jpg 20170621 003-2.jpg 20170621 008.jpg

    John
     
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  16. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi John,

    Something to be aware of is the frequent use of triangular punches or gravers to raise burrs under cock feet to alter staff endshakes. These marks shouldn't be misinterpreted as batch marks.

    I think Jonathan Betts is quite clear about the way these batch marks were used; "All the parts in one set would thus have one, two, three or four dots on them", and later when referring to the larger batches of eight movements, "...it seems a second batch was created, also marked with one to four dots, then in addition marked with another single dot close to, but not part of, the other group.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
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  17. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User

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    Hi Graham

    Thanks for pointing this out.

    It is interesting that the example illustrated by Betts (Fig. 2.5) is of 4 + 1 triangles on a click & set-up ratchet. In the case of the final example I illustrated, the Kelvey & Holland Patent Chronometer, with the frame probably by Henry Fletcher of Prescot, I thought the triangular punch mark on the underside of the cock was a batch identifier, as the frame edge has the same mark ...

    upload_2018-11-16_7-47-49.png upload_2018-11-16_7-57-44.png

    John

    PS Keith, I promise not to add any more non-Johnson examples here :). I added these few to show the variety of marks that I have seen and because from my brief search, these batch marks appear to occur relatively frequently on Johnson frames & those of other Liverpool makers in the first part of the C19th.
     
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  18. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi John,

    I think this whole matter of batch marks merits its own thread; what do you think?

    Regards,

    Graham
     
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  19. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi John,

    I think you're right in this instance, because the punch mark under the cock foot was made so as not to raise a burr and was clearly intended as an identifier and not a 'pig's ear' to alter the endshake.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
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  20. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User

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    Hi Graham,

    I agree - I have started a thread here using our posts

    John
     
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  21. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
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    When you copy the posts to a single post, you lose the sense of the conversation. If you instead ask a moderator or admin to do it for you the structure will be preserved. If you want, I can replace the current contents of your target thread with the selected posts from this thread.
     
  22. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User

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    Tom,

    In this case I am perfectly happy with the approach adopted and although the individual posts have been combined, it is perfectly satisfactory. No change required.

    John
     
  23. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    I think John in this case your attitude is quite wrong-you took out what you and Graham wanted to hear-and left out questions by other members which dont fully agree with, your and Grahams Hypoteisis. I too thought it was a good idea to research these marks on pocket watches-other than on chronometers, has researched by Jonathan Betts, but these marks dont follow what Jonathan had to say.. I have like Graham found movements with two dots or V´s like the one I put on that thread you moved, and I have seen them with three, and also three in two different places on the same plate. Just for the record-can you make it clear how you can do what did to the Johnson thread-I might want to do it myself.
     
  24. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
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    If a user wants to combine material from a thread or even several threads (possibly in different fora) the link that is labeled +Quote can be used to copy a post into the copy buffer. You can continue such copying until you have copied all the material you want and then start either a new thread or a new response. You will see a new button that is labeled "Insert Quotes..." When you click on that button you see this picture except with the list of quotes you have selected.

    upload_2018-11-16_16-0-11.png
     
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  25. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    Thanks for the tech lessons on threads John and Tom, see posts 720 & #724.

    I found a couple of Joseph Johnson Brownlow Hill photographs I wanted to get up on our
    board, I don't think they have been posted here. So here is Joseph Johnson 87 Brownlow
    Hill 17j in an 1850 hallmarked case. This is another of my super accurate time keepers.

    The chain is on it just for safety of the photo and the dust cap is off another watch.

    Keith R...

    103_9670 (800x600).jpg 103_9632 (800x600).jpg 103_0415 (1024x768).jpg
     
  26. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Thank you Tom-that made everything clear.. It reminded me of a blood transfusion-you are doing a good deed-but its boring. Best Allan.
     
  27. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    Allan, I personally struggle with my tech skills, just read my profile page, I have not changed.
    So John and Tom's help for an old guy with halfway tech skills is something I have to do, in order
    to keep up.

    As for trying to keep the thread on track, I place or like placed, photos associated with Joseph
    Johnson watches or relevant components. I would suggest you send a private message to Tom,
    to adequately express your singular thoughts on the matter.

    Keith R...
     
  28. Lychnobius

    Lychnobius Registered User

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    I also read it as 17471, but I cannot verify any such date as 1854 (suggested by Keith). I have not got any fixed points whatsoever between No. 10811 (1829) and No. 27842 (1855). Even the latter is not entirely trustworthy, since that movement may not have been brand-new when it was cased, but an average production rate of 629 units per year, which these figures would imply, does not strike me as improbable.

    Oliver Mundy.
     
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  29. PapaLouies

    PapaLouies Registered User
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    Hi Keith, I think 15j.
     
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  30. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    OK, PL...................15J Joseph Johnson 87 Brownlow Hill.

    Keith R...

    103_9670 (800x600).jpg
     
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  31. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Hi Oliver,
    I have just arrived back after very nice long weekend in Nordaney, a small island off the north coast of Germany. When I arrived back today my neighbour had recived a small packet for me, and on opening it, there was 4551. Only took four weeks. Has you know the seller only put one photograph on ebay, which only showed the dial and hands, both of which are very good indeed,From there on, I would say there is a lot to explaine, and more than one or two question to be asked. Has for me I will just go through the photographs, and then if you like you can tell me what I am looking at.

    IMG_6601 (2).JPG The escapement is an STR-though I think a conversion, you will see the conversion plate in other photographs. The Hack stops the third wheel with a hook type bend at the end of the arm.

    IMG_6602 (2).JPG In the background you can see the plate attached to the top plate for the conversion to STR.though from what I do not know-I think it was Ray who said why convert a Massey to STR.?

    IMG_6604 (2).JPG The end of the lever arm with its safety pin.

    IMG_6605 (2).JPG The next few photographs will interest John Matthews, under the cosk there is scratched Johnson. the punched J. L. C. and to please him more four triangles and a fifth at the end of the cock.So your friend Johnson, Oliver was working in batches?

    IMG_6606 (2).JPG IMG_6608 (2).JPG IMG_6611.JPG IMG_6612.JPG If more photographs are required Oliver please say so.before I send it of to my watchmaker. Before I forget the chain is off-but in good order-both hooks present. Best wishes, Allan.
     
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  32. Lychnobius

    Lychnobius Registered User

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    I have just seen Allan's posting about Johnson 4551. I take this to be an English forgery of the 1830s or 1840s; the spindly lettering of the name JOS'H JOHNSON, the dummy oil-sinks around the banking pins and the rather aimless line-engraving on the cock and barrel-bridge are all out of character. The real 4551 should date from about 1821–22, whereas this has the look of at least fifteen years later. The mark J.L.C. on the underside of the cock foot may eventually give us a clue to who was actually responsible for these crypto-Johnsons or at least for some of them.

    Allan: – As there are hands, I presume there must be a dial. Have you got any images of this, or if not can you give me a description? Although I cannot give a seal of approval (whatever that is worth) to this item, it certainly belongs in the database (where it will be the 192nd entry), and I like to make the descriptions as complete as possible.

    Oliver Mundy.
     
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  33. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Oliver-I think you are right to take caution with this one-and could well be as you say., though it could be one of the others, who came later-I have put below a couple more photographs.You can now see why I wanted the dial and hands, plus another of the plate for the conversion.. I have also enclosed a close up of the start of the signature-quite odd, maybe of interest to JM?.
    Allan

    IMG_6615.JPG IMG_6617.JPG IMG_6617 (2).JPG IMG_6616.JPG IMG_6612.JPG
     
  34. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User

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    Allan/Oliver

    I'm afraid I cannot help with 'JLC' - I have not seen these initials before and they are not mentioned in any of the references I have used.

    I don't think you can assume the triangular marks are batch marks. I'm almost certain in this position on the cock, they are impressions used to adjust the endshake of the balance. However, if you found the same combination elsewhere, on a free area of the plate, for example, then that would be good evidence that they were batch marks. I have no suggestions regarding the marks at the beginning of the signature.

    John
     
  35. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    IMG_6605 (2).JPG IMG_6607 (2).JPG A better look at the marks on 4551 Under the fifth mark there appears to be the name EIAN?? John.
     
  36. Lychnobius

    Lychnobius Registered User

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    Thanks to Allan for the additional photographs of Johnson 4551. Is it possible, I wonder, that this much-worked-on movement has acquired a dial that originally did not belong to it? I say this because the use of a group of four dots rather than the usual black lozenge at the 12/3/6/9 positions strikes me as a rather archaic feature, typical of the 1810s and 1820s, whereas the movement seems to belong to a period about fifteen years later. It will be interesting to see whether the back of the brass edge shows any sign that the dial-pins have been repositioned, as they would certainly have had to be if the dial was transplanted. If it does not, my suggestion must be wrong and I shall have to presume that this way of marking the quarters lasted longer than I have hitherto supposed.

    Oliver Mundy.
     
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  37. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    #737 Allan C. Purcell, Dec 5, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2018
    All I can say Oliver,is the dial is held in placed and pinned in three places. There´s no idications that these have been changed. Please see the photographs below. Best wishes, Allan
    . IMG_6632 (2).JPG IMG_6633 (2).JPG IMG_6634 (2).JPG
     
  38. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    While visiting another thread tonight, I got to thinking about brand. The original Joseph Johnson
    died on March 3rd, 1827. When operations continued after his death on into the late 1860's, in
    my mind, I call that Brand.

    Some might call it a Franchise.

    Keith R...
     
  39. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Thats an interesting perspective Keith-I have always thought that if the same family-father to son, and so on-was a family business. If that business is then sold, or taken over by another business and continues to sell the product-it is then a Brand name. If we look for example at the Hornby´s they were in business as a family for over two hundred years in Liverpool-their name died with the last Richard Hornby c1890.That of course happened to many other family concerns-like Moncas, Beasley,Tobias, Tartlton, and others-their names were not used by other concerns. If we then look at Bregute, Patek Phillip,Waltham, Howard, and others they became brand names.I think we all know that. In the case of the Joseph Johnson it is a little different- We had the Joseph Johnson who died in 1827, but the firm or shop was carried on by his wife.Her son did not carry on the business of watch makeing-she eventually had to sell the business to pay off her debters. Others the with the same name Joseph Johnson also made watches under there name-so to me Joseph Johnson watches are not a Brand name-each disappered when the owner died or left the trade.This is just my way of looking at the way a Brand is made. Here in Germany when the Langer name was re-introduce to the world again-they managed to find a great grandson-to give the impression it was a family concern.? Maybe others have a different point of view-------?
     
  40. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    Johnson was not a brand in 1826. When he died in 1827, his family continued the
    business. We did not begin to collect his watches for 150 years or more. They are
    no longer being produced, but surviving examples are being collected.

    Healthy discourse though.

    Keith R...
     
  41. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
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    Brand can be an interesting discussion. Maybe I will start another thread on the topic. I think it is also closely related to art, craft and commodity product.
     
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  42. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    That sounds like fun Tom-but you go first, and lets see who answers.
     
  43. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    Tom I'll answer you for sure, I've taken more Scud's than Saddam!:D

    Keith R...
     
  44. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    Nov 27, 2012
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    My hopes in the year 2019 are adding more Joseph Johnson Verges, Rack levers or Levers
    to our site and Oliver's data base.

    You can call that a "Calling".

    Keith R...
     
  45. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    #745 Keith R..., Dec 10, 2018 at 3:02 PM
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2018 at 3:57 PM
    Saved by the bell!

    I did not have a Josh Johnson with the center wheel jeweled. I now own a Josh Johnson with
    the center wheel jeweled and the cock window for viewing. I also wanted this one since it is
    close to my other Josh Johnson #14,201. It also has LEVER across the bottom of the cock.
    Note, it's my first scripted Johnson dial, I question if this has been changed out, (opinions
    needed please). I don't recall scripted dials until the 1850's Railway Time Keepers. Observe
    the seconds bit, it is recessed. *I added my #14201 for comparison.

    It is shown as a re-case, so I won't focus on the turn of the century case it's in, although I joked
    with our team, I could change the bezel out and call it 1833. ;)

    Here is #14903, also from the 1840's. You will notice the difference in the two cocks. I think
    I have come to realize that the Johnson firm would entertain different designs in given runs.
    Normally I would have just hit the bid opening amount. This time I put up $255, just to be
    safe and squeezed her out. So I now can say 19 Jewels.

    Yes before you ask, the balance wheel has been upgraded for the turn of the century, (RR).
    ***PL..................19J (I lost 2 off of Joseph Johnson 87 Brownlow Hill). This one puts jewel
    count back up.:) Having both of these in 14k range, one conventional, one a runner should
    help us understand the Johnson firm in the 1840's. BTW, the dial has been switched, (or
    upgraded) and I did not bother the seller with this detail, I would have bought it regardless.

    Keith R...

    jj811 (800x800).jpg jj812 (800x800).jpg jj814 (800x800).jpg jj813 (800x800).jpg jj173 (500x375).jpg 100_2349 (800x600).jpg
     
  46. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    The Johnson movement #14201 photo, was taken prior to restoration by Cargnan
    Watch Co. Graham had to remind me about one I put out there, with the photo taken
    pre-service, (and he restored the watch).

    I need to start stating that.

    Keith R...
     
  47. PapaLouies

    PapaLouies Registered User
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    Hi Keith,
    Nice find 14,903. To be sure of the jewel count you should pull the dial because often time the fusee is not jeweled at the Pillar Plate, so what appears to be 17 jewels is in fact 16 jewels and what appears to be 19 jewels is in fact 18 jewels.

    Regards, PL
     
  48. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    #748 Keith R..., Dec 11, 2018 at 3:23 PM
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2018 at 4:22 PM
    Yes, correct PL.

    But I always take credit for what might be there, not what might not. If Carignan
    comes back and tells me, well it's not fully jeweled at the pillar plate, I'll record
    the count.

    But I agree with what you are saying.

    Keith R...

    EDIT.........The glass is half full and I'm not pulling the dial. This is what I pay
    Carignan Watch Co. for, (I get my moneys worth).
     

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