Josh Johnson

Discussion in 'European & Other Pocket Watches' started by Keith R..., May 5, 2015.

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  1. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
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    To complement Keith's recent purchase, I am able to add #2858 recently acquired. A nice clean example with a 30 tooth escape , no slides, only two very minor edge chips to an otherwise perfect dial, interesting, although probably not original, hands.

    We now have 4 racks #2605, #2779, #2785 & #2885 all in pair cases by the Helsbys. I note that at least three carry the stamp JJ - I wonder if Johnson got a discount for his '1818 batch order':rolleyes:

    John

    20180322 001.jpg 20180322 003.jpg 20180322 007.jpg 20180322 008.jpg 20180322 009.jpg 20180322 011.jpg 20180322 013.jpg 20180322 016.jpg 20180322 017.jpg 20180322 019.jpg
     
  2. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi John,

    I'd be interested to know whether any of these rack levers have jewelled pallets or are they all plain steel ones.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  3. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
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    Hi Graham - I have taken photographs to try and show the pallets on #2858. I thought originally they were jewelled, the inserts are well engineered, but I cannot be certain as to the material - I don't know whether you will be able to tell from the photographs.

    John

    20180322 002-2.jpg 20180322 003-2.jpg 20180322 004-2.jpg
     
  4. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi John,

    Thanks for posting these, they're certainly jewelled, (if they were just steel there wouldn't be any inserts), although as you say it's hard to tell exactly what the stones are. If any of the other rack levers referred to here could also be examined in this area I would be grateful.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  5. John Matthews

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    Hi Graham - looking at the photographs, I believe #2605, also with a 30 tooth escape, has similar pallets to #2858.

    John
     
  6. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi John,

    Yes, they do appear to be jewelled.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  7. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    #607 Keith R..., Mar 22, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2018
    Thanks to all for the participation and discussions. Our data base is growing.
    I just sent Oliver a JJ Rack #2097 with photos for the data base. Please feel
    open to participate further.


    PS............2097 was also 1818 and a JJ case.

    Keith R...
     
  8. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    This will now give us 5 rack levers from Josh Johnson, all for the year 1818, (assuming Oliver blesses
    2097 as a Johnson). It is also a 7J, no slides as described from the site I found it, (there were no side
    shots to view). The dial was plain with a silver chased consular case and looked to be about 3/4 of an
    inch thick. It also had gold hands, (probably replacements). The balance cock was of the fish tail type.
    It had a regular seconds bit and so no mention of a 30 tooth escape wheel. The consular case is also
    marked JJ and 2097 is plainly visible on the inside of the case.

    I'll review the photos after I get off and if I missed anything, I'll catch us up. Ya'll have a good night.

    PS..............Graham and all, if I can get some side shots for 2097 I will.

    Keith R...
     
  9. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    #609 Keith R..., Mar 23, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2018
    This watch is currently under review. Although a genuine JJ from 1818, it may not be a "Rack"
    per say. I'll await the expert opinions on this watch and let them document in which ever way
    is best to communicate it. Graham, John M. and Oliver are on top of it, I'm learning.

    Keith R...

    EDIT: ''This edit is for Graham, Oliver and John M. I just went back to the seller
    for anything I might have missed. He indicates it has a Massey V escapement and
    the watches outside diameter is 51 mm. I will try an approach as if interested, (it is for
    sale) and see if I can get relevant side shots. And I just may be interested!

    UP Here please read.
     
  10. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Keith,

    From the pictures I've seen so far, this is definitely a lever now, and there are no obvious signs that it's been converted from something else. What isn't possible to determine at the moment in the absence of any pictures between the plates, is whether it's a rack lever or a detached type.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  11. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Keith,

    That appears to solve the mystery. If the seller is right and it is a Massey V, that's one of the less common types, (next to the IV of course), and rather a good example.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  12. John Matthews

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    Keith - It sounds an interesting example see relevant discussion and photographs here.

    John
     
  13. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi John,

    As an aside, I was looking at post #5 in your reference, and noticed the unusual punch marks under the cock foot. I've seen these marks in watch cases amongst the hallmarks before, and I wonder if this was a finisher's mark of some sort. It doesn't appear to have been made with any ordinary punch or by two strikes with a triangular punch, nor does it seem to have raised much if any metal.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  14. John Matthews

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    Hi Graham,

    I cannot remember seeing such marks elsewhere. I agree they don't appear to be made by two strikes of a triangular punch. Do you have a photograph of such marks on a case?

    John
     
  15. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    Watch # 2097 Josh Johnson:

    I currently have a request in via email for additional side photos to the watch seller. I'm
    unsure how successful this effort will be. It would be about 2 PM their time on a Saturday,
    so we might get a response on Monday, a normal business day.

    Here is the remaining detail I observed after a third visit to this seller and 2097.

    It is in a 2.5 ounce consular case. The watch has an early original steel balance staff with
    early style pinion leaf & jewel. Also, it contains pierced fusee stop work with iron hinge.
    The "case batch" associated with 2097 is recorded at 35 for the letter A (1818) Chester.

    Keith R...
     
  16. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Keith,

    What does this mean? I get the impression that your man is uncertain in his nomenclature.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  17. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    #617 Keith R..., Mar 24, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2018
    I would agree, I only threw in this symbol............ "&".

    Seeing is believing Graham.

    Keith R...

    EDIT Graham, check your conversation in-box. I gave you an edit.
     
  18. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    Folks should look at the 5 or so different auction sites. They provide the auction estimates prior
    to sale. This provides pricing info if you wind up at a "store" to talk about a Rack.

    Keith R....
     
  19. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    I boxed this one up last night, it's finally getting serviced, a 17J Runner SN# 14201. It is replacing Oliver Gerrish,
    another Liverpool runner, coming back to KY after service by Denis & team up in New Hampshire at Carignan
    Watch Co.

    Keith R...

    jj173a (500x375).jpg jj173 (500x375).jpg Liverpool (755x800).jpg
     
  20. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    I would like to thank CWCo (Carignan Watch Company) of Belmont New Hampshire,
    for the restoration of Josh Johnson # 14201 @ 25 Church Street, Liverpool, circa roughly
    1842. The case was a replacement in 1877. The seconds hand has been replaced.

    Keith R...

    100_2355 (800x600).jpg 100_2359 (800x600) (2).jpg jj173 (500x375).jpg jj173a (500x375).jpg
     
  21. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    Here is Josh Johnson #14201, timing with an 18 size E Howard key wind from 1867.

    Note, the Johnson cream dial vs the plain white E Howard dial.

    Keith R...

    103_0706 (800x600).jpg
     
  22. Omexa

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    Hi Keith, it is a really nice looking Dial. Regards Ray
     
  23. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    Thanks Ray, I just love the cream dials.

    Keith R...

    100_2355 (800x600).jpg 100_2097 (800x600).jpg
     
  24. Omexa

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    Hi Keith, like Cream Dials very much; as matter of fact it is sometimes a factor on whether I purchase. At the moment I am waiting to see which Hotel I am going to for 9 days. Both Hotels are new and expensive. Thank God the Government are paying. Regards Ray
     
  25. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    I'm starting to think cream dials are a product of Liverpool watches Ray. If you look in
    this very thread, the oldest cream dial by Josh Johnson, is owned by John Mathews on
    his rack lever #2858, which is 1818. My oldest cream dial on a lever, is the Samuel Lewis
    1832.

    Ray, I hope your forced stay is enjoyable for 9 days. Call on me if you need anything

    Cream dial on my Barr verge 1803 & Lewis Samuel lever 1832.

    Keith R...

    100_3902 (1024x768).jpg jj520 (600x800).jpg
     
  26. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    Thought I better get our Josh Johnson thread dialed into Josh Johnson.

    So here is Josh Johnson #2785 from 1818 and Josh Johnson #14201 circa 1840's.
    * I will re-shoot #2785 one of these days.

    Keith R...

    JJ245 (500x667).jpg 100_2347 (800x600).jpg
     
  27. Lychnobius

    Lychnobius Registered User

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    Reverting for a moment to the appearance of 'JJ' stamps in Johnson cases: – My first Johnson watch, No. 5687, came to me in a well-fitting but non-original silver pair-case which included this mark as well as the sponsor's mark and Chester hallmarks for 1820. Clearly, then, this practice on the part of Johnson (or of the case-makers with whom he worked) is not limited to the year 1818.

    Similarly, I have a McCabe watch of 1833 in which a tiny stamp 'IMC' (I for J, as was still common) appears on the dial-plate, under the cock and inside each panel of the case. I take it to be a form of quality-control, indicating that the watchmaker made a point of inspecting and approving each of the components so marked.

    Oliver Mundy.
     
  28. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    I assume there was a patent associated with this device, whether it's a 1 tooth
    or two tooth catch on the sprocket. I speak to this mainspring device that makes
    this watch and many others, Liverpool runners.

    On an E Howard key wind, they used a Maltese cross to interrupt a sudden break
    of the mainspring.

    So I guess my question is regardless of maker, what is the oldest known Liverpool
    Runner with this device, as depicted in the photo (note, 14201 is missing one tooth)
    from the plates, of this Josh Johnson sn #14201?

    edit, could be missing several more teeth.

    Keith R...

    jj173 (500x375).jpg
     
  29. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Keith,

    The watch you illustrate is indeed a Liverpool Runner, but not for the reason you mention; it's known as this when the lever is planted nearest the fusee rather than nearest the barrel in the more conventional train layout. Many Liverpool watches did have their barrel ratchet and click mounted on the barrel bar rather than tucked away under the pillar plate, and a good many also had double teeth on the click, but they ain't necessarily 'Runners'.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  30. John Matthews

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    #630 John Matthews, Jun 21, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2018
    Hi Keith - your post is going to promote a few interesting contributions I suspect.

    So just to get things going here is a link to a c1825 duplex movement from London with said device ,,,

    EDIT: posted in parallel with Graham ...
    EDIT #2: quick search - date range c1825 to c1850 as a starter
    EDIT #3: - here is a later 'Runner' c1865 probably for the American market with Liverpool/London/Coventry connections

    John
     
  31. John Pavlik

    John Pavlik Registered User
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    Keith, the "Maltese device" you mention is not used for the purpose of limiting damage when a mainspring breaks.. it main
    purpose is to limit the effective usable length of the mainspring... using only the "mid' section of the mainspring to ensure
    a consistent force is applied to the movements train.. which in theory, helps maintain better time keeping...
     
  32. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    #632 Keith R..., Jun 21, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2018
    Graham, when I see this sprocket near to the fusee like in this one, I assume it's a runner. I used
    this watch to buy my other runners. Sounds like I need to ask about my other watches.

    Also, If the mainspring breaks will the train not be stopped when the fingers catch the sprocket?

    John, I'll follow your links.

    Thanks guys.

    John P., sounds like I mixing up stop works with Maltese cross.

    The point of my question is this, #7771 could not have been made before 1825
    it sounds like to me. Second photo is about 1861, (I think). So while I was at it,
    I looked into my other watches.

    Keith R...

    103_2889 (800x600).jpg MIT6A (800x748).jpg
     
  33. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
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    Keith these two examples may help - compare the position of the lever banking pins relative to the fusee and barrel

    Non Runner

    upload_2018-6-21_17-28-49.png

    Runner

    upload_2018-6-21_17-29-37.png

    John
     
    Keith R... and Tom McIntyre like this.
  34. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Keith,

    The 'Maltese cross' is just one variety of stop work amongst several, all intended, as John says, to limit the mainspring to the flattest central portion of its power curve.

    No, it won't.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  35. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    #635 Keith R..., Jun 21, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2018
    Got it John. Thanks!!

    Graham, got it. Makes me wonder why the Johnson has several teeth
    knocked out though.

    Keith R...

    Liverpool (755x800).jpg jj522 (800x531).jpg
     
  36. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    Hi, here are a couple more incomplete JJ'S. Regards Ray

    20180622_011128.jpg
     
  37. Tom McIntyre

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    One of the things that always gives me pause when looking at these watches is how the center wheel engages the third wheel pinion when that big barrel seems to be in the way. Perhaps one of you talented fellows could post a tear down to show all the gear relationships on the runner and non-runner varieties. With the center arbor hidden by the cock, it is hard to visualize the wheels below the top plate.
     
  38. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    #638 Keith R..., Jun 21, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2018
    Thanks for correcting my thinking.

    Keith R...

    I have 4 wheels of the train plus escape wheel from page 59 of the PG.
    Right thing to look at?

    Edit, it's easier for me to see John's 2nd photo where the banking pins
    are closest to the fusee. Pic one the banking pins are closest to the barrel.

    kr...
     
  39. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    #639 Keith R..., Jun 21, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2018
    So is there an example of a conventional train watch with barrel ratchet and click mounted on the barrel bar
    visible above the plate and it's not a runner?

    Keith R...

    edit........thanks John, I had seen you post this.
    edit........thanks Graham, neat seeing my own watch.
     
  40. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
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    Sorry the only shot I have of the train of a 'Runner', is without the 4th wheel & barrel but I think you can work it out ...

    20171027 001.jpg

    its from Johnson 6370


    20171027 007.jpg

    John
     
  41. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi John,

    Make that the third wheel . . .

    Tom, also bear in mind that the third wheel is often set in a cutout in the pillar plate, with its pivot in the pillar plate bar. This places it under the centre wheel, between it and the dial. This watch is not a Liverpool Runner, (it's Keith's Pitkin). You can also see the protective post set in the top plate between the lever and the barrel.

    DSCF5326.JPG DSCF5352.JPG

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  42. John Matthews

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    opps - sorry
     
  43. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
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    I was thinking along the recess lines and I had overlooked that the escape wheel was in a potence below the back plate with lots of stuff below it going toward the dial side. Graham, the under dial view makes the geometry a lot easier to see. Especially with the third wheel way up there.
     
  44. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Tom,

    It isn't in the example I used, and it generally isn't in full plate English levers. The third and fourth wheels are both pivoted in that pillar plate bar, so their shoulders are the thickness of the pillar plate further away from the top plate, and hence that much longer than the escape wheel and lever arbors.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  45. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
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    Sorry Graham, I was having a senior moment. I meant to say "balance wheel." :oops:
     
  46. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Tom,

    Ah, senior moments I can sympathise with!

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  47. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    Thanks guys for the lessons.

    Keith R...
     
  48. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    I had a bad day on 6/21. Here's hoping 6/22 turns out much better. Thanks on hanging in there for me guys.

    Keith R...
     
  49. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 27, 2012
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    I may have found a new early Josh Johnson discovery. I have sent all the available
    pics and data to Oliver. Serial number 709 and early case maker TH (forgot to tell
    Oliver that part), but he has the video.

    Edit, this is my watch, new watch is pair case, white unmarked dial. I'll let Oliver
    review the video.

    Keith R...

    100_5781 (800x600).jpg
     
  50. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 27, 2012
    5,533
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    Male
    Retired Sr. Proj. mgr,
    South
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    Region Flag:
    #650 Keith R..., Jul 24, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2018
    I got excited like I did with post #601, but hey sometimes I get ahead of my skis.
    After discussions with Oliver, Graham, John and Ray it's another converted one.
    It's origins I'd be scared to make an offer on, unless I had Graham there with his
    entire shop. But Oliver has one for the data base, so we trudge on to ground zero
    on levers for Josh Johnson. There will be more discoveries for sure.

    We have for him an early verge. One's got to think perhaps he took a shot at a
    duplex. Thanks to all for the assessments of #7xx. Just think, the next post by a
    collector could be the one!

    First pic is a Josh J.

    Keith R...:)

    103_0698 (800x600).jpg
     

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