Joseph Penlington PW

[miguel angel cladera]

I have just acquired this watch from this well known firm. From what little I have searched I can see that Penlington was respected for its chronometers, but I don't know if it finished these "simple" watches. I don't have any more pictures but I can post these. The calibre looks like a quality calibre, but as you can see you can't make out or appreciate much, except, oddly enough, two holes in the plate that perhaps shouldn't be there. The images of the case are worse and it is impossible to appreciate the stamps. When I receive them I will take good pictures of them.

 

[Dr. Jon]

I love English free sprung levers. Many have very unusual roller/fork set ups.

 

[miguel angel cladera]

After a few days of very intense work, I have been able to sit down and look for some information about Penlington. And I have a few doubts... Mercer is referred to as a great manufacturer of marine chronometers, but I haven't found any images. He was a watchmaker, but also a retailer, wasn't he? the Penlington & Batty firm is after his dead in 1881? What is his relationship with Hutton? Thank you very much for your help

 

[miguel angel cladera]

Any thoughts?

 

[mosesgodfrey]

I am hesitant to jump in, as I am the first to admit I know little of value. But here is my read, fwiw, since no takers so far; please disregard if known or unhelpful. The main retail outlet, and signature, was at 2-3 St. George's crescent; this appears to have been a full-service jewelry store, and this is the address associated with chronometers. Perhaps Hutton was the retail/business manager.

You may have already found Penlington's 6-acre home, Sunnybank, in which he appears to have conducted his work; it was sold by his daughter in 1896 and became the Liverpool & Bootle Police Orphanage. Info here; more pics here.

Looks like there's a (second?) Joseph Penlington, in Birkenhead, making watches/clocks, which became Joseph Penlington & Co between 1871-1877.

 

[miguel angel cladera]

I haven't had much time to look, but I'll get to it this week. I found this. Thank you very much for your help.

1. John PENLINGTON, Watch and Chronometer Manufacturer, Church Street and Edge Hill, Liverpool Bankrupt, gazetted 18th July 1826; discharged 1st July 1828 1a John PENLINGTON, 25th February 1825, bill of costs of prosecution of Thomas LUCAS, Kirkdale (Liverpool) sessions. There is no direct connection between these two events, but if he was sueing for money and next year was bankrupt himself.

2. Joseph PENLINGTON, Born 1801, Much Woolton, Liverpool, Premises
Chapel Street, Liverpool. Died 5th August 1881, "Sunnybank",Much Woolton, estate GBP25 000,00
3. In photographs dated c1900 of St George's Crescent, Liverpool there is a Watch and Jewellry shop called Penlington and Batty, allegedly
(from family sources) the descendant of Joseph above. In the 1960's in Dale Street, Liverpool the Jewellers Williams' Brothers were shown as successors to Penlington and Batty.

Upto Joseph Penlington's death all the watches I've seen were signed Jos Penlington but post that date they appear to be signed Penlington and Batty.

 

[John Matthews]

Miguel - Sorry - rather late coming to this.

I have uncased movement #13344 [1870~] see here - a free-sprung inverted double roller. It appears to be based on a similar frame, mine stamped [J·P].

John

 

[miguel angel cladera]

Miguel - Sorry - rather late coming to this.

I have uncased movement #13344 [1870~] see here - a free-sprung inverted double roller. It appears to be based on a similar frame, mine stamped [J·P].

View attachment 753089 View attachment 753086 View attachment 753088 View attachment 753087


John

Thank you so much John!! JP-Preston?
They really look like watches of remarkable quality. I imagine it will arrive this week and I will be able to take some good pictures. Apparently Joseph Penlington was a good finisher!!! I have seen a repeater with a leCoultre English style ebauche.

Triple Overcoil & Free Sprung Chronometer MINUTE REPEATING Gold Antique Pocket Watch. Complicated Watches. Fine Antique Watches at GoodOldWacth.

www.goodoldwatch.com

 

[John Matthews]

The marks [JP] & [J·P] is believed to be the early marks of Joseph Preston found on marine chronometers as well as watch frames (Betts).

Incidentally it has be suggested that these highly polished rollers may have continental influence.

John

 

[Incroyable]

The marks [JP] & [J·P] is believed to be the early marks of Joseph Preston found on marine chronometers as well as watch frames (Betts).

Incidentally it has be suggested that these highly polished rollers may have continental influence.

John

Did English makers typically not black polish the rollers?

 

[miguel angel cladera]

Hello friends, I have just received my watch and I am really pleased with it.

Fortunately, it is in excellent condition, works very well and keeps the time very well at the moment. I honestly didn't expect this as I paid a very low price for it.

Looking at the movement, I have a first doubt. What are those two holes for? Did they make a mistake when making the frame?

The two covers of the case preserve the stamps perfectly and they are also stamped with the serial number of the watch.

If I am not very wrong, I would place the watch in the year 1893 and the manufacturer of the case could be Arthur Baume.

But this late date raises many questions for me, as a priori Joseph Penlington died in 1881. Could it be an old stock watch that was not sold until 1893? I know that English watchmaking was very conservative, but even so.... In this old post there are quite a few serial numbers.

Jos Penlington of Liverpool

Does anyone have, or know of, a list of serial numbers against year, watch type etc? Peter

mb.nawcc.org

As always, thank you very much for your attention and help

 

[mosesgodfrey]

His marine chronos were still going through Greenwich in 1889-1890. But submitted by whom? Batty?

 

[miguel angel cladera]

His marine chronos were still going through Greenwich in 1889-1890. But submitted by whom? Batty?

How interesting! Where did you find this information?

 

[Incroyable]

Nice photos.

Did you just use your phone to take the closeups?

 

[gmorse]

Hi Miguel,

I would place the watch in the year 1893 and the manufacturer of the case could be Arthur Baume.

The assay year is certainly 1893/4 and the mark is for Arthur Baume who was a watch importer; his role here is that of sponsor, not maker, in other words his company was the 'responsible person' who arranged for its assay. The company was, amongst other things, the UK agent for Longines and many from this maker appear in cases marked for Baume. The actual case maker(s) are apparently still unknown. That this English movement is in a Baume case does raise the question of whether this is the original case, and if it isn't, that could explain the apparent discrepancy in dates.

Regarding the two 'spare' holes next to the third wheel upper jewel, I've seen holes in similar positions on movements by Robert Roskell, but they're single holes much closer to the pivot and were intended to allow examination of the depthing of the pinion immediately underneath them. The purpose of the holes in your example remains unclear.

Regards,

Graham

 

[John Matthews]

I am not aware of a systematic study of Penlington watch serial numbers, Mercer has data on his chronometers, which I believe are a separate sequence, This morning I have been able to find a few cased Joseph Penlington watch movements that have been sold by auction houses. The sample size is very small but the serial numbers do appear to have been applied in a chronological sequence and therefore were probably controlled by Penlington.

Here is the list

1867 – 11158 - gold open face
1868 – 12066 - gold open face
1871 – 13386 - gold half hunter
1888 – 15164 - gold half hunter
1893 – 15119 – gold half hunter minute repeater

Miguel - There is definitely a possibility that your movement may have been re-cased.

The data I collected was back in 2017 and I would strongly advise that you repeat the search for further examples. To use serial numbers to interpolate/extrapolate year of manufacture you definitely need more than a handful of examples and that was all I had back then. However, the consistency I found back then does cause me to at least consider that your example, may have been made as much as 30 years prior to the assay date of the present case. Many of Penlington's cased movements are in gold cases and it is possible that 1890s the gold case was 'cashed in' and replaced by the current silver case, and when made it was stamped with the movement serial number.

John

 

[eric the bully]

Nice photos.

Did you just use your phone to take the closeups?

Photographs taken with an excellent digital camera
Regards enrico

 

[miguel angel cladera]

Nice photos.

Did you just use your phone to take the closeups?

Yes the most important thing is that I have good natural light. I still have to work hard to take decent pictures and even some good ones.

 

[miguel angel cladera]

Hi Miguel,


The assay year is certainly 1893/4 and the mark is for Arthur Baume who was a watch importer; his role here is that of sponsor, not maker, in other words his company was the 'responsible person' who arranged for its assay. The company was, amongst other things, the UK agent for Longines and many from this maker appear in cases marked for Baume. The actual case maker(s) are apparently still unknown. That this English movement is in a Baume case does raise the question of whether this is the original case, and if it isn't, that could explain the apparent discrepancy in dates.

Regarding the two 'spare' holes next to the third wheel upper jewel, I've seen holes in similar positions on movements by Robert Roskell, but they're single holes much closer to the pivot and were intended to allow examination of the depthing of the pinion immediately underneath them. The purpose of the holes in your example remains unclear.

Regards,

Graham

Thank you very much Graham, although I was surprised that the serial number of the mechanism was stamped on both covers. The holes do not have any kind of thread, they are smooth.

 

[miguel angel cladera]

Miguel - There is definitely a possibility that your movement may have been re-cased.

The data I collected was back in 2017 and I would strongly advise that you repeat the search for further examples. To use serial numbers to interpolate/extrapolate year of manufacture you definitely need more than a handful of examples and that was all I had back then. However, the consistency I found back then does cause me to at least consider that your example, may have been made as much as 30 years prior to the assay date of the present case. Many of Penlington's cased movements are in gold cases and it is possible that 1890s the gold case was 'cashed in' and replaced by the current silver case, and when made it was stamped with the movement serial number.

John

Yes, I should look for more examples and know that the numbering can change a lot whether it is Penlington-Hutton, Penlington-Batty or Josh Penlington like my example, but I have no doubt that this watch is older than the date on the case assay. Your theory of exchanging a gold case for a silver case is very acceptable and rational.

 

[miguel angel cladera]

Photographs taken with an excellent digital camera
Regards enrico

No, it's with the phone camera, but of course I have to take 100 pictures first to get a decent one. good natural light is a must.

 

[gmorse]

Hi Miguel,

...although I was surprised that the serial number of the mechanism was stamped on both covers.

There's a possibility that it is a re-case as John has suggested and that the person doing the work stamped the movement serial in the case at the time; this isn't an unusual practice.

Regards,

Graham

 

[eric the bully]

No, it's with the phone camera, but of course I have to take 100 pictures first to get a decent one. good natural light is a must.

Then you have a great phone camera, nice pictures.
Regards enrico

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

Hi Miguel, Just saw this thread. Below is an early pocket watch by Joseph Penlington of Liverpool. Sorry, no serial number. Thought you would like to see it.

 

[miguel angel cladera]

Hi Miguel, Just saw this thread. Below is an early pocket watch by Joseph Penlington of Liverpool. Sorry, no serial number. Thought you would like to see it.

View attachment 754681 View attachment 754683 View attachment 754684

What an interesting watch with that compensation curve. Thank you very much. It is difficult to find information and watches from Penlington.

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

Here is another one. Nice early serial number.



Enjoy Miguel.

 

[miguel angel cladera]

Here is another one. Nice early serial number.

View attachment 754697 View attachment 754698 View attachment 754699

Enjoy Miguel.

Its a chronometer? i saw detached lever, but...

 

[GordonM]

Allan
Those are two very interesting watches, but surely the signatures are for John Penlington, rather than Joseph. Miguel's post no6 gives some notes on both. Do you know if they were brothers? If so, I wonder if John worked with Joseph after his bankruptcy.

There was a spring detent movement on Ebay recently, signed "I PENLINGTON", Parker St., which Loomes gives as John's address, he seems to have been working a few years earlier than Joseph.

What variety of lever does No390 have? The inverted Earnshaw type balance is unusual.

My apologies if this is a slight thread drift.

Angus

 

[John Matthews]

John Penlington watches also known to be signed I Penlington (#658 {1820/21}) & Ino Penlington (#3208 {1826/27}).

Addresses I have for John Penlington: 1821 - 2 Parker Street; 1823 & 1824 - 1 Rose vale, Everton (home), 4 Parker Street (shop), 1825 - 1 Fleet Street, 4 Parker Street (shop); 1827 - 1 Upper Mason Street, Edge Hill, 66 Church Street (shop); 1828 - 65 Church Street. I have no later addresses.

Joseph Penlington: 1825 - 84 London Road, 7 Parker Street (shop); 1827 - 30 Gerard Street, 11 Leigh Street & 42 Hanover Street (both shops); 1828 & 1829 - 39 Church Street; 1832 - West Derby, 38 Church Street (shop) ....

John

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

My apologies if this is a slight thread drift.

Hello Gordon,

I think you are right, these were sent to me by a friend, who said they were for Joseph. In the meantime, I have started to research John, and my findings you will see on my next Prescot thread. Thank you for your comments.

Regards,

Allan.

 

[Incroyable]

Here is another one. Nice early serial number.

View attachment 754697 View attachment 754698 View attachment 754699

Enjoy Miguel.

Originally a pair case?

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

[/QUOTE]

Originally a pair case?

Yes. Still is.

 

[miguel angel cladera]

Allan
Those are two very interesting watches, but surely the signatures are for John Penlington, rather than Joseph. Miguel's post no6 gives some notes on both. Do you know if they were brothers? If so, I wonder if John worked with Joseph after his bankruptcy.

There was a spring detent movement on Ebay recently, signed "I PENLINGTON", Parker St., which Loomes gives as John's address, he seems to have been working a few years earlier than Joseph.

What variety of lever does No390 have? The inverted Earnshaw type balance is unusual.

My apologies if this is a slight thread drift.

Angus

As far as I have searched, I have not found any sign of kinship.

 

[miguel angel cladera]

Following the beautiful Penlington watch that our friend Bernhard has shown us, I update this entry. Although the watch was running very well, I sent it to a good friend of mine for oiling and cleaning. I have some pictures of the plates, but they are not engraved by any manufacturer.

The dial

The watch has 20 jewels counting the two on the anchor lever. its a single roller so polished.

Unfortunately the chain hook broke without any stress (material fatigue?) and as it is very difficult to find spare parts here in Mallorca, we made one. Now we just need to harden it to make it strong and rivet it back to the chain.

We still can't figure out what these two extra holes in the plate are for,...

It will soon be back in working order

 

[miguel angel cladera]

After two attempts (one hook broke during hardening) it is now back on the chain and mounted on the bucket.

At the moment the watch is running very happily clean and oiled (I wanted to insert a video, but I don't know how to do it). When its strength is finished, dial and hands will be mounted and we'll see how it timing and if it need to adjust.

 

[gmorse]

Hi Miguel,

Do you leave the hook dead hard?

Regards,

Graham

 

[miguel angel cladera]

Hi Miguel,

Do you leave the hook dead hard?

Regards,

Graham

I hope so... we dipped it in a wire wrap with liquid soap to wrap it well. Then it was set on fire until it was red hot and immediately left to cool in car oil. the first time one cracked in the heat, this second time it seems to have worked. The chain has been rewound twice, with the force of the actual spring now clean and greased, and it seems to be working.

 

[gmorse]

Hi Miguel,

May I ask why you left it dead hard? It's subject to little or no friction or wear, and it needs to have some resilience to cope with the pressures on it, which is best achieved by tempering to blue after hardening. Leaving it hard makes it brittle.

Regards,

Graham

 

[miguel angel cladera]

Hi Miguel,

May I ask why you left it dead hard? It's subject to little or no friction or wear, and it needs to have some resilience to cope with the pressures on it, which is best achieved by tempering to blue after hardening. Leaving it hard makes it brittle.

Regards,

Graham

Thank you very much. My friend is not a professional, just like me. We do this for fun and learn from our mistakes. We thought it would give us elasticity and hardness. So far it has achieved its goal and is working well. But thank you very much for your advice.

 

[gmorse]

Hi Miguel,

From your description, it sounds as though you have hardened but not tempered it, although the degree of hardening is dependent on the rate of cooling; hardening requires very rapid quenching which you have done in oil. However, with very small components such as a chain hook, wrapping in binding wire has the added advantage of holding the heat for longer, as well as acting as a matrix for the soap coating to reduce fire scaling. Another potential problem with very small parts is the risk of over-heating, resulting in the carbon in the steel being burnt off, which makes the part useless. Heating in air can result in premature and slower cooling which doesn't produce proper hardening.

Tempering then reduces the hardness and produces a tougher, less brittle item. The tempering colours are well-documented and are the result of extremely thin oxide films on the surface of the metal, so the piece must be clean and free of any discolouration from the hardening process in order for the colours to be clearly seen.

Having said all that, I usually make chain hooks from pieces of old blue steel mainsprings, and I've never found it necessary to do any heat treatment on them. Leaving them in their blued state does sometimes require drilling with carbide bits and shaping with diamond files, but that isn't a problem.

Regards,

Graham

 

[miguel angel cladera]

Hi Miguel,

From your description, it sounds as though you have hardened but not tempered it, although the degree of hardening is dependent on the rate of cooling; hardening requires very rapid quenching which you have done in oil. However, with very small components such as a chain hook, wrapping in binding wire has the added advantage of holding the heat for longer, as well as acting as a matrix for the soap coating to reduce fire scaling. Another potential problem with very small parts is the risk of over-heating, resulting in the carbon in the steel being burnt off, which makes the part useless. Heating in air can result in premature and slower cooling which doesn't produce proper hardening.

Tempering then reduces the hardness and produces a tougher, less brittle item. The tempering colours are well-documented and are the result of extremely thin oxide films on the surface of the metal, so the piece must be clean and free of any discolouration from the hardening process in order for the colours to be clearly seen.

Having said all that, I usually make chain hooks from pieces of old blue steel mainsprings, and I've never found it necessary to do any heat treatment on them. Leaving them in their blued state does sometimes require drilling with carbide bits and shaping with diamond files, but that isn't a problem.

Regards,

Graham

Thank you very much again Graham. If I ever have to do one again, I will certainly take your advice. For us, doing these small jobs, gives us a real dimension of just how much trouble and difficulty there was in making a watch of this nature. The main objective is to carry out the repair without altering the originality of the watch to any great extent. If a repair involves the use of parts or materials which were not used at the time or which are foreign to the watch itself, it is preferable to leave it as it is. Writing about these watches is also a part of the legacy of the watch itself. Thanks to you and many members of this forum, every time I learn new things that make me enjoy our hobby. It is really a pleasure to be here.

 

[Bernhard J.]

Hi Miguel,

Although it is annoying to make a part once again, I would strongly recommend to follow Graham´s advice and to make a new hook. Hardening without subsequent tempering really makes the material brittle, and imagine the hook breaking (your watch does not have a safety pinion).

I since long also use old mainsprings for making chain hooks, that is most convenient because one needs not to think about any kind of thermal treatment. Diamond needle files really work well and are not expensive.

Best, Bernhard

 

[miguel angel cladera]

Hi Miguel,

Although it is annoying to make a part once again, I would strongly recommend to follow Graham´s advice and to make a new hook. Hardening without subsequent tempering really makes the material brittle, and imagine the hook breaking (your watch does not have a safety pinion).

I since long also use old mainsprings for making chain hooks, that is most convenient because one needs not to think about any kind of thermal treatment. Diamond needle files really work well and are not expensive.

Best, Bernhard

Of course, it's going well for now, but let's do another one and avoid unpleasant surprises.

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

Hi Miguel,
I thought you would like to see this one, it is a Joseph Penlington this time. The inscription on the inner case is for a birthday in 1931, so probably it was in the family and passed on to Gordon Leigh Evens from his father or grandfather. (A quarter repeater).




Allan.

 

[miguel angel cladera]

Hi Miguel,
I thought you would like to see this one, it is a Joseph Penlington this time. The inscription on the inner case is for a birthday in 1931, so probably it was in the family and passed on to Gordon Leigh Evens from his father or grandfather. (A quarter repeater).

View attachment 759721 View attachment 759720 View attachment 759719 View attachment 759718


Allan.

Of course it is, what a beautiful watch. Thank you very much for showing. I'm going to try to read the marks on the case.

 

[eric the bully]

I believe the fourth photograph shows the registration mark {AS} in a rectangular cartouche. As far as I can see this mark was only registered at the London Assay office. If so this is likely to be the mark of Alfred Stram. A native of Switzerland he registered this mark on 17 June 1867 from 11 East Street Red Lion Square where he had succeeded Louis Comtesse. Culme says he moved to Northampton Square in 1854 where he worked until he died in 1893. This mark registered at his original address according to Priestley, so either both addresses were active, or the references are in conflict.

I think it is probably an 18K case.

John

Regards enrico