Joseph Johnson Family Tree

John Matthews

NAWCC Member
Sep 22, 2015
3,960
2,078
113
France
Country
Region
I have spent this afternoon trying to better understand the descendants of Joseph Johnson. As a result I would like to share my first attempt at a family tree. I have used the introduction that Oliver produced at the beginning of his database and the records of the Liverpool Museum database. I had hoped I might be able to find a relationship between the main family and the Joseph Johnson of Brownlow Hill. In that respect I have failed. I do believe I may have found a possible relationship which I have not otherwise seen made. Apology if it is well known.

In the WIKI entry it describes that after Joseph's death, “his wife Mary, son Joseph Johnson and grandsons Joseph Johnson Cashen and Joseph Johnson Norris continued his work.” As Oliver records the first of the grandsons is the son of Elizabeth, until today, I could not link Johnson Norris into the family tree. I now believe he was the son of Mary, Joseph's eldest daughter.

The Liverpool database has the following entry for Mary Norris

1841 census - chronometer maker aged 30 of Mount Pleasant + 4 - Joseph aged 8, Ann aged 5, Eliza aged 3 + John aged .* 1851 census - chronometer maker aged 40 of 4 Stanhope Street + 6 - Joseph aged 18, Ann aged 17, Francis aged 15, Eliza aged 13, John aged 11 + Mary aged 9. * 1861 census - chronometer maker aged 50 of 82 Salop Street + 3 - Joseph aged 28, Francis aged 25 + Mary aged 19.

and for Johnson Norris

1851 census - watchmaker + finisher aged 18 of 4 Stanhope Street. * 1861 census - watchmaker aged 28 of 82 Salop Street. * 1871 census - watchmaker aged 38 of 134 Breck Road - bachelor + lodger

I don't think there can be any doubt that this has established the Mother – Son relationship. Without a record of the marriage of Joseph's daughter Mary to a Norris, I cannot be absolutely certain that Mary Norris was nee Johnson – but the usage of 'Johnson' as with Joseph Johnson Cashen and the WIKI identification of Joseph Johnson Norris as the grandson of Joseph, provides compelling circumstantial evidence.

By reference to Mercer's Chronometer Makers of the World, I believe that Mary married Francis Norris and that they operated as Francis and Mary Norris from 1832 to 1839. It looks as if Francis died ~1839 before the census of 1841. The company continued through to1848 and then Mary was joined by John Campbell. The company became Norris & Co before being succeeded by Dudd & Nephews. The company is also described as a opticians and mathematical instrument makers, in addition to chronometer and watch makers

A number of us have discovered that the ages recorded in the early census data are prone to error and ambiguity, but as far as I can see the dates recorded and the corresponding ages of the Joseph's descendants , do appear to be sufficiently consistent to justify the attached family tree.

John
 

Attachments

PapaLouies

NAWCC Member
Apr 14, 2010
1,355
638
113
Country
Hi John,

The 1841 UK census was taken Sunday 6 June 1841.
The L.H.D.B:
Lists Mary Norris - 1841 census with the youngest child Ann aged 5.
The L.D.S. 1841 UK census:
Lists Ann Norris age 5 in the household of Mary Johnson.
From the middle of Church Street to the middle of Mount Pleasant is a bit more than 1/4 mile as the crow flies.
I think it likely the Enumerator recorded little Ann, aged 5, at the house of Mary Norris and on the same day recorded Ann Norris, age 5, at the house of Mary Johnson.
I think it's evident that Mary Norris was in, fact, Mary Johnson, Born 14 Nov. 1809.

Interesting Note:
Baptism: 10 May 1843 St Peter, Liverpool, Lancs.
Mary Norris Cashen - [child] of James Cashen & Elizabeth.
Abode: Ranelagh Place.
Occupation: Carver & Gilder.
Baptism: 20 Feb. 1845 St Peter, Liverpool, Lancs.
Joseph Johnson Cashen - [child] of James Cashen & Elizabeth.
Abode: Upper Harrington.
Occupation: Carver & Gilder.

You may be interested in the Francis Norris chronometer No. 102, 27 Feb. 1835.
On the net click, Papers of John Pond and then search Francis Norris.

It is my opinion that the sons and grandsons of Joseph and Mary Johnson had little or nothing to do with the production of Josh Johnson 25 Church Street watches. Research soon to follow.

Regards, PL
 
  • Like
Reactions: Keith R...

Keith R...

NAWCC Member
Nov 27, 2012
5,766
2,541
113
South
Country
Region
John, as I recall when I produced my Joseph Johnson of Brownlow Hill, a collector having
about four watches stated he was a relative of this particular Johnson, indicated there
was no kinship between the 25 Church Street Johnson's. Oliver, PL, Ray and Graham may
recall the dialogue.

By the way, hello PL.

PS, Good info John!

Keith R...
 

Keith R...

NAWCC Member
Nov 27, 2012
5,766
2,541
113
South
Country
Region
John, here was that persons message regarding watches from 87 Brownlow Hill
Joseph Johnson. He contacted me after he posted his watch.

"
Keith,
I will add more however here is the problem. A descendant of Joseph
Johnson (Church Street) who lives in New Zealand claims this Joseph
died in 1862. Indeed, Joseph Johnson (Church Street) died in 1827 and
his wife Mary and son Joseph continued the business until 1843 when they
appear to have gone Bankrupt.

Joseph Johnson (Brownlow Hill) was born about 1805 and all records
(death/will/census) point to this date. In fact he was married to Margaret
Kempster on 18 Aug 1824 and their first son William was born on 18 Aug
1824 (just in time, I guess).


It seems that there were at least two or more Johnson manufacturers in
Liverpool, Jh Johnson, J, Johnson, Josh Johnson and Joseph Johnson. For
a while, I tracked the sale of Johnson watches that came up for sale
hoping to make sense of the numbering scheme, but without success. I will
photograph the watches in my collection and post them soon. A visit with
the principal Horologist at the Liverpool Museum in 2003
identified at least 20 individuals with the last name Johnson, working in
some capacity in the industry but he had never tried to link or relates all
the Johnson names he had collected. As it was something of
a cottage industry, a number of them may have been related.

Sorry if all this causes confusion about Johnson watches, it has been and
is still a challenge to me to clear up the records and identify who made
which watches.I continue to collect Liverpool Pocket watches but now
concentrate only on ones with 87 Brownlow Hill as I know this to be the
product of my GGGrandfather. Best Regards "
John
 

John Matthews

NAWCC Member
Sep 22, 2015
3,960
2,078
113
France
Country
Region
Hi PL - thank you for opening this thread up ....

James Cashen & Elizabeth
This is a brief reply and I need to check my notes and sources when I have more time tomorrow - but I note that I have Joseph J Cashen as the wife of Elizabeth, you refer to 'James' - I wonder if both could be correct and it is Joseph James Cashen. Apart from that I believe the records you quote are aligned with the tree I posted. Let me know if I am mistaken

Keith - good to see you back, more on the Johnsons tomorrow.

John
 

Keith R...

NAWCC Member
Nov 27, 2012
5,766
2,541
113
South
Country
Region
Thanks John, this whole Johnson journey has been interesting.

I'm glad to be back John. Keith R...
 

John Matthews

NAWCC Member
Sep 22, 2015
3,960
2,078
113
France
Country
Region
PL - going back to my notes and comparing your information with the family tree I produced ...

The 1841 UK census was taken Sunday 6 June 1841.
The L.H.D.B:
Lists Mary Norris - 1841 census with the youngest child Ann aged 5.
The L.D.S. 1841 UK census:
Lists Ann Norris age 5 in the household of Mary Johnson.
From the middle of Church Street to the middle of Mount Pleasant is a bit more than 1/4 mile as the crow flies.
I think it likely the Enumerator recorded little Ann, aged 5, at the house of Mary Norris and on the same day recorded Ann Norris, age 5, at the house of Mary Johnson.
I think it's evident that Mary Norris was in, fact, Mary Johnson, Born 14 Nov. 1809.
This I believe is consistent with this part of the tree ...

upload_2018-1-28_11-11-22.png

Baptism: 10 May 1843 St Peter, Liverpool, Lancs.
Mary Norris Cashen - [child] of James Cashen & Elizabeth.
Abode: Ranelagh Place.
Occupation: Carver & Gilder.
Baptism: 20 Feb. 1845 St Peter, Liverpool, Lancs.
Joseph Johnson Cashen - [child] of James Cashen & Elizabeth.
Abode: Upper Harrington.
Occupation: Carver & Gilder.
I have modified my master copy of the tree to accommodate these two baptisms on the assumption that 'James' Cashen and my 'Joseph J' Cashen are the same person married to Elizabeth Johnson - I think this is the case, although I am not sure why one reference has Joseph and the other James. I will check my sources again.

upload_2018-1-28_12-24-37.png

The WIKI entry is one reference that documents Johnson's grandchildren's involvement in the continuation of the business together with his widow, Mary and his son Joseph. However, the involvement of a son 'Joseph', immediately after the death of his father, is not consistent with the family tree I produced. I have two sons by that name, the first died in 1826 and the second was only born in 1821. I had wondered whether the 'Joseph' might be Elizabeth's husband 'Joseph J Cashen' - this was when I thought that the 'J' was possibly for 'Johnson'. Similarly the grandchildren would have not been working until the late 1850s. In my notes I also have reference to partnerships between the Johnsons and Roskells the 1820s. The significance, as it relates to the continuation of the Johnson business, is not clear to me.

So my conclusion is more research is needed ...

Thank you for the link to the Pond papers, that I am yet to consult.

John
 
Last edited:

John Matthews

NAWCC Member
Sep 22, 2015
3,960
2,078
113
France
Country
Region
Hi PL

Having checked through my notes and references I'm afraid I have not been able to identify a James Cashen marrying Elizabeth Johnson, however, the check has identified that Elizabeth married Joseph S Cashen – I had Joseph 'J'. Here is the 1851 Census record which ties in their daughter Mary Norris and son Joseph Johnson Cashen

England and Wales Census, 1851

Name: Joseph S Cashen
Event Type: Census
Event Date: 1851
Event Place: West Derby, Lancashire, England
Registration District: West Derby
Residence Note: Mount Vernon Street
Gender: Male
Age: 43
Marital Status: Married
Occupation: Carver And Gilder
Relationship to Head of Household: Head
Birth Year (Estimated): 1808
Birthplace: Liverpool, Lancashire
Page Number: 3
Registration Number: HO107
Piece/Folio: 2192 / 228
Affiliate Record Type: Household

Household

Joseph S Cashen Head Male 43 born Liverpool, Lancashire
Elizabeth Cashen Wife Female 30 born Liverpool, Lancashire
Mary Norris Cashen Daughter Female 8 Liverpool, Lancashire
Joseph Johnson Cashen Son Male 6 Liverpool, Lancashire
Lawrence O'Donnell Visitor Male 33 Ireland

The naming of their first daughter Mary 'Norris' is, I assume, in recognition of her uncle 'Francis Norris'.

Joseph Johnson Cashen went on to marry Susannah Griffiths and I have been able to confirm their children as Amy, Mary Edwards, Elizabeth, Joseph, James and Edward. The two youngest children on the original tree are probably in error. Joseph Johnson Cashen is recorded as a watchmaker finisher in the 1881 census and a watch maker in the 1891 census. He died in 1932 at the age of 87. I have not investigated his later life.

Unfortunately, it appears that the researchers at Liverpool have incorrectly assigned the details of Joseph Johnson Cashen to a John Joseph Cashen listed as a watchmaker in 1871 at 21 Binney Street and 49 Guilford Street in 1881. He is probably the same person as a Joseph John Cashen listed as the father of the John Francis Cashen – one of the younger children, I had assigned to Joseph Johnson Cashen above. He was also married to a Susanna – always without the 'h', unfortunately. I have also see Joseph Johnson's wife rarely spelt without the 'h'. I have not found a link between the families.

There is clear evidence that both the Norris and Cashen grandchildren were involved in watchmaking activities, but evidence for any involvement in the continuation of the original 'Johnson' business, requires stronger evidence.

John
 

PapaLouies

NAWCC Member
Apr 14, 2010
1,355
638
113
Country
Hi John,

The L.H.D.B. is replete with errors. The listing of Cashen John Joseph is likely correct regarding Joseph Johnson Cashen's marriage to Susannah Griffiths, although it is Susanna. Also correct is the listing for two of Joseph and Susanna's children. See St Peter church records.
Baptism: 28 Jul 1867 St Peter, Liverpool, Lancs.
Amy Cashen - [child] of Joseph Johnson Cashen & Susanna.
Born: 26 May 1867.
Abode: Edge Hill.
Occupation: Watch Maker.
Baptism: 10 may 1869 St Peter, Liverpool, Lancs.
Mary Edwards Cashen - [child] of Joseph Johnson Cashen & Susanna.
Born: 21 Feb 1869.
Abode: Edge Hill.
Occupation: Watch Maker.

This is not the Joseph Johnson Cashen son of James & Elizabeth Cashen nee Johnson and grandson of Joseph & Mary Johnson.

When I get all together will have suggested corrections to your Family Tree.

Regrds, PL
 

John Matthews

NAWCC Member
Sep 22, 2015
3,960
2,078
113
France
Country
Region
Hi Pl - I am not using the LHDB as the main source.

I am using the census records. As far as I can determine from the 1851 census record (that I posted above) Joseph S Cashen married and Joseph Johnson's daughter Elizabeth and their son was Joseph Johnson Cashen who married Susannah Griffiths and their children taken from the census records are as I posted above. John Joseph Cashen is not Joseph Johnson Cashen who married Susannah Griffiths - that I believe is the main confusing error on the LHDB. I think they have incorrectly linked John Joseph Cashen to Joseph Johnson Cashen. The census records that I have seen consistently have Joseph Johnson Cashen's wife as Susannah with an 'h' and the names of the children all seem to tie in - the church records appear drop the 'h'.

What is your source of the marriage between James Cashen & Elizabeth Johnson? Are you suggesting that they also had a son Joseph Johnson Cashen and also had a daughter who they named Mary 'Norris' Cashen? - perhaps I have misunderstood.

John
 

PapaLouies

NAWCC Member
Apr 14, 2010
1,355
638
113
Country
Sorry John,
In my post #12, I don't know how I put not in the statement, must be old age.
It should read This is the Joseph Johnson Cashen son of James Cashen etc.

Better proof read the next post. Will add all the information on the marriage of James Cashen and Elizabeth Johnson tomorrow.
And it is Susanna no h. Susannah Griffiths was born 20 Dec 1809, a little old for Joseph, Baptism: 10 May 1845. Better Susanna Griffiths Baptism: 18 Aug 1842.

Hope to do better tomorrow, Regards, PL
 

John Matthews

NAWCC Member
Sep 22, 2015
3,960
2,078
113
France
Country
Region
Hi PL - no worries, I have the same problem, I used to be able to guarantee a single proof read was suffice, now post 70, I sometimes miss the obvious after 2 or 3 passes - part of the brain seems to remember what you intended to write and fails to accept the black and white of what you actually wrote.

My observations are that the references to the census records of 1881 and 1891 have Susannah with ages of 35 and and 44 which corresponds to the birth record of ~1845 that you have identified. The marriage record of 1866 also has Susannah. However the birth/baptism records are not consistent - Amy, Mary Edwards, and Edward record Savanna, whereas Joseph and James record Savannah. So I don't believe the 'h' is significant and I am confident that you have been able to identify the correct birth record for the wife S Griffiths.

I believe I have found the marriage record of Elizabeth Johnson to James Cashen, that you may be referring to - is it this?

5 April 1842 at Walton on the Hill, Lancaster, England - with the spouse's father as Joseph and the groom's father William.

Lancaster is a mistake for Lancashire and Walton, Liverpool, was formerly Walton on the Hill, so this appears to be a good candidate. I have found James Cashen's christening record for 15/06/1808; together with the corresponding christening records of Mary Norris Cashen (10/05/1843) and much later Henry Cashen (11/08/1864) both with the parents of Elizabeth and James Cashen - but no record of a Joseph J Cashen with parents James & Elizabeth. The record I have does not include the parents' names. There is a 1871 census record for a James (carver & gilder age 63) and Elizth (age 51), which could correspond but with children James 14 and Henry 6, they don't match.

The principal problem is that I cannot reconcile the above marriage with the 1851 census record (see my post 11) which records Elizabeth (age 30) married to Joseph S Cashen (also born 1808) and the children Mary N and Joseph J. Given I have Elizabeth Johnson born 1819, 30 is well with in the accuracy of census age recording for 1851, the children names match and Joseph Johnson Cashen's details are consistent for all his other records. I also have a partial marriage record for Joseph J Cashen from Spring 1866 where he married a Susannah Griffiths or Harriet Arnold. Unfortunately I have not been able to trace the Joseph S Cashen in the later census records.

I am struggling to resolve these conflicts, unless James Cashen changed his name to Joseph S Cashen, - I hope you have more success.

John
 
Last edited:

John Matthews

NAWCC Member
Sep 22, 2015
3,960
2,078
113
France
Country
Region
There is a 1871 census record for a James (carver & gilder age 63) and Elizth (age 51), which could correspond but with children James 14 and Henry 6, they don't match
I may have been too quick to dismiss this record completely, as Henry is the correct age to have been born in late 1864 early 1865 corresponding to the record of James Cashen & Elizabeth's son Henry baptised on 11/08/1864.

An updated family tree is attached.

John
 

Attachments

Last edited:

musicguy

Moderator
Staff member
NAWCC Member
Sponsor
Jan 12, 2017
9,720
6,987
113
New York State
Country
John Matthews Wrote: "part of the brain seems to remember what you intended to write and fails to accept the black and white of what you actually wrote".
This may be my new forum signature quote.

Rob
 

John Matthews

NAWCC Member
Sep 22, 2015
3,960
2,078
113
France
Country
Region
Rob - be my guest I'm just pleased to write something (at last) that rings true ...

John
 

PapaLouies

NAWCC Member
Apr 14, 2010
1,355
638
113
Country
Hi John,

Please see Thread: Joseph Johnson database: revised.
PapaLouies Post #59, Dec. 16, 2016.

From the beginning setting aside redundancy:
Marriage: 21 Jan 1793 St Anne Richmond, Liverpool, Lancashire, England.
William Cashen - Carver & Gilder of the Parish of Liverpool.
Ellin Elliston - Spinr. of the same place.
Married by Banns by: Harry Housman Minister.

Baptism: 15 Jan 1808 St Nicholas, Liverpool, Lancashire, England.
James Cashen - Son of William Cashen & Ellen (formerly Elliston), His Wife.
Born: 9 Jan.
Abode: Paradise Street.
Occupation: Gilder.

Marriage: 5 Apr. 1842 St Mary, Walton on the Hill, Lancs.
James Cashen - Full, Carver & Gilder, Bachelor, Walton.
Elizabeth Johnson - Full spinster, Liverpool.
Groom's Father: William Cashen, Deceased, Carver & Gilder.
Bride's Father: Joseph Johnson, Deceased, Watch Maker.
Witness: Henry Cashen, Peter Taylor, Anne Johnson, Joseph Johnson.
Married by Licence by: Thomas Moss Vicar.
Register: Marriages 1837-1846, Page 95, Entry 189.
Source: L.D.S. Film 1647985.

Baptism: 20 Feb. 1845 St Peter, Liverpool.
Joseph Johnson Cashen - [child] of James Cashen & Elizabeth.
Abode: Upper Harrington.
Occupation: Carver & Gilder.

For the Baptism of Joseph Johnson Cashen and Susanna children see my Post #12 this Thread.
I have yet to find the marriage of Joseph Johnson Cashen and Susanna.
It's likely that her name is not Susannah, because the birth records of their children show her as Susanna.

John, I did not include Henry Cashen in my Post #3 because my intention was to show Elizabeth's tie to Mary Norris nee Johnson and that she was the mother of Joseph Johnson Cashen.

John, I suspect that your information per the 1851 Census is a compilation of an erroneous read by others of the hand written 1851 census document.

Regards, PL
 
Last edited:

John Matthews

NAWCC Member
Sep 22, 2015
3,960
2,078
113
France
Country
Region
Hi PL - thank-you for the additional information.

I am pleased you have found a baptism record for Joseph Johnson Cashen, which confirms the link to James and Elizabeth. I agree the 1851 compilation could be explained by a transcription error - we need someone who has access to a digital copy of the original record.

I am not so certain about this ...

It's likely that her name is not Susannah, because the birth records of their children show her as Susanna.
you could be right, and the compilation copies of the birth/baptism records I referred to below could also be due to transcription errors ...

However the birth/baptism records are not consistent - Amy, Mary Edwards, and Edward record Savanna, whereas Joseph and James record Savannah.
but given the confirmation with the census records, I think the children names are correct.

John
 

PapaLouies

NAWCC Member
Apr 14, 2010
1,355
638
113
Country
I will rely on you John to solve the Susannah-Susanna dilemma.
Regards, PL
 

PapaLouies

NAWCC Member
Apr 14, 2010
1,355
638
113
Country
John, as I recall when I produced my Joseph Johnson of Brownlow Hill, a collector having
about four watches stated he was a relative of this particular Johnson, indicated there
was no kinship between the 25 Church Street Johnson's. Oliver, PL, Ray and Graham may
recall the dialogue.

By the way, hello PL.

PS, Good info John!

Keith R...
Hi Keith,
You may be interested:
Williams manufacturers' directory, for London and principal market towns, 1864 page 265.
LANCASHIRE:
WATCH MANUFACTURERS:
Johnson, J. 91, Bronlow (sic) Hill.

Regards, PL
 
Last edited:

Keith R...

NAWCC Member
Nov 27, 2012
5,766
2,541
113
South
Country
Region
Thanks PL.................Both you & John M. are good at researching this info. Combine that with
Oliver's data base work and we get accuracy on this side of the board that's unparalleled!

Keith R...
 

John Matthews

NAWCC Member
Sep 22, 2015
3,960
2,078
113
France
Country
Region
Hi Keith we thank you for your kind words - it's a helpful community with many contributing to the outcome including your good self.

John
 

PapaLouies

NAWCC Member
Apr 14, 2010
1,355
638
113
Country
Hi John,

In your Post #11 1851 census under Joseph S. Cashen the following.
1808 is the birth of James Cashen.
the children shown are also James's born 1843 and 1845.
hope this helps.
Regards, PL
 
Last edited:

PapaLouies

NAWCC Member
Apr 14, 2010
1,355
638
113
Country
Hi John,

On the net you can find Liverpool Mercury ads, unfortunately they are always scrambled.

Liverpool Mercury.
Published: Friday 06 July 1866.
County Merseyside, England.
Type: Family Notice: (Page 3).

Portion of the ad as it appears:
MARRIAGES CASHEN-.
St. Stephent - the - Martyr's by the Rev. B.
Maruer Lloyd, Joseph John.hson Ceahen,
Watchmaker to Mics 3snaainah Grilliths,
both of this town.

Could be Susannah!
Regards, PL
 

John Matthews

NAWCC Member
Sep 22, 2015
3,960
2,078
113
France
Country
Region
Hi PL - yes you are right there is an exact match apart from the christian names - that's why I was struggling

I am struggling to resolve these conflicts, unless James Cashen changed his name to Joseph S Cashen, - I hope you have more success.
and agreed my struggle could be due to a transcription error as you suggested ....

I agree the 1851 compilation could be explained by a transcription error - we need someone who has access to a digital copy of the original record.
It would be nice to see a copy of the original, but in its absence I propose to go with James and add a note suggesting that the original record should be checked.

John

Edit - your post 26 while I was typing my 27, busy for next few days, more time on Friday ...
 

Lychnobius

Registered User
Aug 5, 2015
619
253
63
Redruth, Cornwall, UK
Country
Hi Keith,
You may be interested:
Williams manufacturers' directory, for London and principal market towns, 1864 page 265.
LANCASHIRE:
WATCH MANUFACTURERS:
Johnson, J. 91, Bronlow (sic) Hill.

Regards, PL
An entry in the 1861 census likewise places this Joseph Johnson at 91 Brownlow Hill, although this address has not yet been found on any actual watch.

Oliver Mundy.
 

Keith R...

NAWCC Member
Nov 27, 2012
5,766
2,541
113
South
Country
Region
PL never sleeps Oliver............All I know is my watch has 87 Brownlow Hill on the movement. He
could have been a drunk and sleeping in an ally in C1864 @ 91 Brownlow hill, but if he did he
forgot to add that address to his movements or yet to surface.

Thanks guys...............Keith R...
 

PapaLouies

NAWCC Member
Apr 14, 2010
1,355
638
113
Country
Hi Keith,

Of interest, Thread: Josh Johnson, page 12, PL's Post #585.

Regards, PL
 

Keith R...

NAWCC Member
Nov 27, 2012
5,766
2,541
113
South
Country
Region
PL, that thread sounds familiar...................I'll look it up for your post #585. Keith R...:)
 

Keith R...

NAWCC Member
Nov 27, 2012
5,766
2,541
113
South
Country
Region
Got it PL, 1851 Brrowlow Hill, 1853 in the directory for this Joseph Jonson. Of course note it's
odd how his signature on my Brownlow Hill looks exactly the same as my #7771 at Church Street,
from many years earlier.

Now I wonder if the one at 91 Brownlow Hill is any kin to the 25 Church Street Johnson.

Keith R....
 

gmorse

NAWCC Member
Jan 7, 2011
14,252
3,374
113
Breamore, Hampshire, UK
Country
Region
Hi Keith,

Of course note it's
odd how his signature on my Brownlow Hill looks exactly the same as my #7771 at Church Street,
from many years earlier.
It's quite possible that they were both done by the same engraver.

Regards,

Graham
 

John Matthews

NAWCC Member
Sep 22, 2015
3,960
2,078
113
France
Country
Region
I have updated the family tree in the light of the discussion this far. It goes without saying that this has benefited from all who have posted to this and other related threads - to all I extend my thanks.

A copy is attached – I hope it is without error, but please let me know if you spot anything that is amiss.

Where there is evidence of family members being involved in the watch making professions, the boxes containing their names are in the darker shade. I have included Joseph's sons, John Houghton and Joseph, in this category, although it is not entirely clear to me how, when and even if, they became involved in the Church Street business.

John Houghton Johnson inclusion is supported by watch #1729 in Oliver's database. This is signed 'Josh & Jn Johnson' from which, I believe, it has been inferred that this was father & son. This watch has similar features to other watches signed John Johnson and are grouped together in the database.

Exactly how the business was run following the death of Joseph snr is not entirely clear. John Houghton Johnson would have been 19 when Joseph died on 2 March 1827 and his brother, Joseph, not quite 6. There is certainly evidence that Joseph's wife, Mary, was involved in the business and it has been suggested that the business was continued by Mary supported by her sons and grandsons.

In the period prior to Joseph's death there was a formal partnership between the Johnson business and that of the Roskells. Joseph had a partnership with Robert and John Roskell that was dissolved on 13 September, 1821. After Joseph's death a partnership existed between Joseph's widow, Mary, and Lewis Hughes, trading as Joseph Johnson (executors). The partnership was registered as 'chronometer, clock and watch makers' and it seems reasonable to assume that any watches produced would have been signed Josh Johnson. When the partnership was dissolved on 12 September, 1835, Mary received a payment but remained responsible for any remaining debts.

From the 1841 census Dave Green has noted that Mary was still residing in Church Street and that her son Joseph was living at the same address. Mary is recorded in the Liverpool Museum database at 49 Church Street, as a chronometer, watch and clock maker from 1839 to 1843. I cannot remember any evidence to support Keith's 'Brownlow Hill' descendant's claim that Mary became bankrupt in 1843.

Census records for Joseph Johnson, recorded in the Liverpool Museum database, have reference in 1851 to a watch polisher age 31, at 233 Scotland Road and in 1861 to a watch jobber age 40, at 5 Sherwood Street. Also, from the latter census, there is a record of a Joseph/John Johnson age 39, operating as a watch manufacturer from 28 Severs Street. Although, simply on the basis of age, any of these may correspond Joseph snr's youngest son, Joseph, I have no supporting evidence that this is the case. I have been unable to locate the relevant census records to research these individuals further

I have made no attempt to include any details of the Joseph Johnson of Brownlow Hill, who according to the descendant who corresponded with Keith, was born ~1808 and was not related to the Church Street Johnsons.

Finally, I have included the information that has been transcribed from the 1851 census which refers to Joseph snr's daughter, Elizabeth, being married to a Joseph S Cashen. As PL has suggested this is probably a transcription error; it is included as a reminder that a copy of the original census record should be checked.

John
 

Attachments

PapaLouies

NAWCC Member
Apr 14, 2010
1,355
638
113
Country
Hi John,
It looks like you did not get a chance to read my Post #59 Dec.16, 2016 at Thread: Joseph Johnson database: revised.
For Mary Johnson's Bankruptcy take a look on line at the London Gazette, 12 September 1843, Issue: 20260, Page: 3036.
Regards, PL
 

John Matthews

NAWCC Member
Sep 22, 2015
3,960
2,078
113
France
Country
Region
Hi Pl - my thanks yes I missed it, likely to be more ...

So with your help, I have found the notice which is attached. Essentially Mary assigned her assets to William Bold (watch jeweller) & James Condliffe on the 29 May. This notice, issued on the 1 September, 1843, informs any of Mary's outstanding creditors that they must make any claim before the 1 November, 1843. I note that in your post you make the reasonable assumption that Mary's watch making activities would have ended when the indenture was made, i.e. 29 May, 1843.

John

upload_2018-2-2_10-4-40.png
 

John Matthews

NAWCC Member
Sep 22, 2015
3,960
2,078
113
France
Country
Region
I attach an updated pdf where I have added periods of known activity - a first attempt based principally on trade directories and entries in the Liverpool Museum database.

John
 

Attachments

PapaLouies

NAWCC Member
Apr 14, 2010
1,355
638
113
Country
Hi John,
Suggested information for your Family Tree.
(1) John Houghton Johnson, born 21/08/1808, baptized 18/09/1808.
(2) Could be Francis Norris lived past 1839, LHDB Mary Norris 1851 census, John aged 11 & Mary aged 9, therefore John born abt. 1840 and Mary born abt. 1842.
(3) Joseph Johnson born 17/07/1815, d. 1826. I think it likely he passed before they named another Joseph Johnson born 11/05/1821.

Regards, PL
 

PapaLouies

NAWCC Member
Apr 14, 2010
1,355
638
113
Country
Hi Keith,
A bit more on Johnson of Brownlow Hill.
1841 Census: Joseph Johnson 36 watchmaker Pennington Court. Therefore born abt. 1805.
1851 Census: Joseph Johnson 46 watch finisher, 3 apprentices, No.6 Pennington Court, Trowbridge Street.
1861 Census: Joseph Johnson 56 master Watch Finisher employing 1 man, 91 Brownlow Hill.
1871 Census: Joseph Johnson 66 watchfinisher, 7a House, Cornwallis Terrace, Trowbridge st, Liverpool.

Regards, PL
 

John Matthews

NAWCC Member
Sep 22, 2015
3,960
2,078
113
France
Country
Region
Hi PL,
1. I have John Houghton baptised on 21/08/1808, so we have conflicting sources - mine is from the Liverpool database, can you please let me have your source(s)?
2. yes, I think you are correct, Mary is not listed in the 1841 census, but neither is Francis, so 1840 for his death is possible - I will make the change to ~1840, but leave is activity up to 1839 based upon the trade entries.
3. yes, these are the dates I already have on the tree.

John
 

PapaLouies

NAWCC Member
Apr 14, 2010
1,355
638
113
Country
Hi John,
My source is the Toxteth Ancient Chapel of Liverpool, Chapel of Toxteth registers.

Regards, PL
 

Keith R...

NAWCC Member
Nov 27, 2012
5,766
2,541
113
South
Country
Region
PL...........Thanks again, I'd like to have one from 91 Brownlow Hill, especially around 1861.

Keith R...
 

Keith R...

NAWCC Member
Nov 27, 2012
5,766
2,541
113
South
Country
Region
John, yes approach Marty about appending to the other Joseph Johnson
Brownlow Hill, in the Josh Johnson thread with my blessing.

PL, that is what I understood when you sent me back to your post in the old
thread. This considers my 1850 case, waited 9 months (or longer) for the
movement marriage with my Brownlow Hill, mvt# 2165..

Keith R...
 

John Matthews

NAWCC Member
Sep 22, 2015
3,960
2,078
113
France
Country
Region
In a 'conversation', PL has rightly questioned the strength of evidence for including John Houghton Johnson as an active participant in the Church Street business. I had used (post #34), the watch serial number #1729 signed 'Josh- & Jno Johnson No 1729 : Liverpool', as supporting evidence and we discussed this in the context of the comments that Oliver has included in this database.

My understanding of these is that Oliver believes that the serial number is not consistent with the movement style and that the style is more like that of watches produced later. His last comment 'date may be correct', I have interpreted this to mean that the characteristics are more like 'dated genuine' watches from ~1830s. I don't think the asterisk is referring to the signature.

The initial inference I have made is that there was an association of Joseph and a John Johnson, i.e. there was a John Johnson working with the Church Street business and that John was almost certainly a close relative. The question is, given that initial inference (based upon the assumption that the signature is genuine), what is evidence to support 'John' being John Houghton? In response, all I can offer is that if you take the watches signed 'John Johnson', and use their serial numbers to estimate the most likely period when these watches were produced, you might infer, from mid 1820s to ~1836. The end of this period corresponds to when John Houghton died.

The evidence is far from conclusive, but, in my opinion, is sufficient for a working assumption that John Houghton Johnson was associated with the Church Street business during that period.

PL also drew my attention to the 1832 Poll Book for Liverpool. I have subsequently obtained a printed copy. Within the listing of Burgesses (inhabitant with full rights of citizenship) & Freemen, there are 30 Johnsons listed. There are two in Church Street. Both are listed as druggists; a Samuel Johnson and a John H Johnson. The list does not contain any watch makers in Church Street – as Joseph had died in 1827, this may not be surprising as his wife, Mary, was probably running the business at the time.

The 1829 Gores Liverpool directory, is the closest trade directory I have to the poll book: it contains both Joseph Johnson, 28 Church Street, watchmaker together with Samuel & Sons, 4 Church Street, Druggists and Chemists. I think it is reasonable to assume that the freeman John H Johnson, in the 1832 Poll Book, was a son of Samuel Johnson and not John Houghton Johnson.

John
 
  • Like
Reactions: Keith R...

PapaLouies

NAWCC Member
Apr 14, 2010
1,355
638
113
Country
Hi John,
Are you saying Samuel & Sons is Samuel Johnson & Sons?
Regards, PL
 

John Matthews

NAWCC Member
Sep 22, 2015
3,960
2,078
113
France
Country
Region
Hi PL,

Samuel & Sons is Samuel Johnson & Sons
Yes, back in February, I thought it was ...

I have looked again at the Poll Book and I believe that it is reasonable to infer that Samuel Johnson and John H Johnson (both listed as druggists in Church Street) were located at the same address and were probably related. Given the entry in 1829 Gores for Samuel & Sons (druggists & chemists) at 4 Church Street, I think it is reasonable to assume that Samuel was the father and John H his son. Mary Johnson then running the Johnson watch business, would not be listed in the poll book as she would not be eligible to vote (in the UK women over 30 were given the vote by Representation of the People Act in 1918).

John
 

PapaLouies

NAWCC Member
Apr 14, 2010
1,355
638
113
Country
John, The listing is Johnson, Samuel & sons not Samuel & Sons.
Regards, PL
 

John Matthews

NAWCC Member
Sep 22, 2015
3,960
2,078
113
France
Country
Region
PL - Yes and no - it is actually ...

upload_2019-1-15_22-35-4.png

Johnson, Samuel & Son - not 'Sons' but 'Son' - in the form Surname, Forename, viz. Samuel Johnson & Son. Am I missing your point? it all seems to be as I inferred.

John
 

PapaLouies

NAWCC Member
Apr 14, 2010
1,355
638
113
Country
Hi John,
My bad, it's son not sons!
Commercial Directory 1818-19-20.
Druggists:
Johnson Samuel, 4 Church - street.

Gore's 1827 Liverpool Directory.
Johnson, Samuel druggist, 4, Church street.

Gore's 1829 Liverpool Directory.
Johnson, Samuel & Son.

Baptism: 21 Aug 1821 St Peter, Liverpool, Lancs.
George Johnson - Son of Samuel Johnson & Elisabeth.
Abode: Church st.
Occupation: Druggist.
Source: LDS Film 1656418.

Regards, PL
 

Forum statistics

Threads
176,285
Messages
1,543,017
Members
53,222
Latest member
Clockman85
Encyclopedia Pages
1,064
Total wiki contributions
3,031
Last update
-