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Joseph Johnson again

Lychnobius

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Aug 5, 2015
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This prolific Liverpool maker (not to be confused with J. Johnstone who has been mentioned recently) has been discussed several times here, but information about Johnson watches remains rather scarce. One problem is that a very high proportion of the movements are in American cases, non-original cases or no cases at all, so that the dating information for hallmarks is worthless if it exists at all. Another is that the serial numbers are not straightforward. I have lost much of the information about these which I collected some ten years ago, but I do remember that the numbers seem to have taken a step backwards in about 1830, possibly at the time when the old type of balance-cock (quite wide, with a 'fish-tail' foot that stops short of the edge of the plate) gave way to the parallel-sided pattern which was copied in Aaron Dennison's earliest designs.

All this is by way of introduction to my new Johnson watch, a seventeen-jewel English-lever fusee with the serial number 15488. As so often, the case (hallmarked Chester 1855) is irrelevant. It fits well, but there are clear signs of modification; among others, the keyhole has been roughly enlarged and an extra slot has been cut for the hack-lever. My guess is that the movement is a few years older, perhaps late 1840s; I say this, tentatively, because there are signs that Messrs. Johnson had already adopted the smaller recessed seconds dial before 1850, although of course it is possible that they offered both types concurrently.

The engraved motif on the cock is a little out of the ordinary. At first I thought it was an attempt at an American eagle (many Johnson watches went to the States, and this one came to me from Virginia) or perhaps the mythical 'Liver Bird' which symbolised the town of origin. However, the head looks more like that of a dragon or wyvern, and there is a suggestion of a most un-bird-like tail at bottom right. Moreover, there seems to be a heraldic 'torse' ( a wreath made up of two strands twisted together) below the figure, suggesting that it is the 'crest' from a coat of arms. I should be interested to know if anyone has seen a cock similarly adorned, and I should also welcome any further clues to the date.

Oliver Mundy.
johnson_new_02.jpg johnson_new_03.jpg johnson_new_01.jpg
 

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Keith R...

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Nov 27, 2012
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During my discoveries for an earlier Joseph Johnson of mine, (7771) I came across an
article of English origin indicating that the sons of Joseph, (Joseph died in 1827) took over
the firm. In about 1840 it indicated the new serial numbers began around sn#40,000 with
a thinner movement. This could be a Josh Johnson by the sons in the 1830's. Note, I'm
just a collector of one and offer items I stumbled across in my journey. There was a
gentleman around 2,000 helping me when I first dove into English watches and had a
neat old web site for the beloved Verge, so named Oliver Mundy.

Also note Johnson moved from the factory address of 25 Church Street in 1825. I
also notice the h in Josh as been dropped and now showing on this example as Jos.
Keith
 

MartyR

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Dec 16, 2008
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The creature depicted is a gryphon or griffin. The wyvern has only two legs and not the taloned "front" legs of yours, and the wyvern's wings are reptilian and not feathered like yours. The ho-ho bird also has only two taloned legs, but its tail is long and feathered as shown below:

90276 2 Unknown.jpg

The gryphon is a popular emblem in heraldry, and I agree with Oliver that I can see a torse (I didn';t know it was called that!) below the figure.

I will browse through my Burke's Armoury to see if I can find an example, but I suspect there will be many.
 

gmorse

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Jan 7, 2011
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Hi Martin,

Whilst you're in there, have a look for "cockatrice", which this creature resembles, and also " couped" or cut off, (as distinct from "erased").

Regards,

Graham
 

Lychnobius

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Aug 5, 2015
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Redruth, Cornwall, UK
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My thanks to you all.

Martin:- If you only knew how close I was to writing 'gryphon' rather than 'wyvern'! That is a lesson to me on the imprecise use of language. I am ashamed to have needed it.

Keith: - I am touched that you should have remembered my 'Horologia' website. Personal circumstances compelled me to let both the site itself and the domain name lapse several years ago. I have recovered much of the material through the 'Wayback Machine', and as I seem to be drifting back into watch collecting I may one day reinstate the site under some new name.

I think my watch may have a Massey escapement, probably a III (the most common type). I have read somewhere in this forum that the use of the word PATENT on the cock-foot is usually a sign of a Massey system. It is difficult to be sure, since the usual line of sight through the side of the movement is obstructed by an exceptionally bulky release-spring, but the roller-table looks thicker and narrower than that of a standard English lever. The watch is running particularly well and I am reluctant to interfere with it further than I have already done.

I am not convinced that the second-hand is original; it is the right length but looks too thick in proportion to the very delicate Breguet-type hour and minute hands. However, I may be attaching too much significance to this point, since scarcely anyone in the early 1800s (except Breguet himself) had any idea of treating a watch as a wholly integrated design.

Oliver Mundy.
 
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Keith R...

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Nov 27, 2012
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Welcome back Oliver, love that gold balance wheel. Keith

ps. When you assisted me before, my sign on name was peg leg.
 

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