Jos Penlington of Liverpool

Discussion in 'European & Other Pocket Watches' started by itspcb, Feb 26, 2013.

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  1. itspcb

    itspcb Registered User
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    Does anyone have, or know of, a list of serial numbers against year, watch type etc?
    Peter
     
  2. MartyR

    MartyR Registered User
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    I'm not aware of any database for Penlington, Peter.

    We have several Penlington owners here and if you post photos of the movement and tell us the serial number we may be able to help. I assume it's in an American case?
     
  3. itspcb

    itspcb Registered User
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    Thanks Martin
    I have acquired a PW by Penlington, recased in a english silver case.
    I was thinking of finding out more about Penlington watches. I have a few other Penlington pieces.
    Here's the recently acquired piece.
     

    Attached Files:

  4. MartyR

    MartyR Registered User
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    OK Peter, I can contribute a few Penlingtons to the conversation :) Fortunately they're both cased in original gold cases so I cn provide reasonable date attribution.

    The first is a very low serial number 538 and dates to 1822; it has a Massey III escapement. It has a characteristically fancy gold dial.

    85 1 Joseph Penlington.jpg 85 6 Joseph Penlington.jpg

    The second is entirely a different beast. This is serial number 9627 (so not a lot earlier than yours) dating to 1857. It's a full chronometer freesprung with spring detent escapement, helical hairspring and diamond endstone, and correspondingly has a far more sober plain dial ;)

    31 1 Joseph Penlington.jpg 31 5 Joseph Penlington.jpg 31 6 Joseph Penlington.jpg

    I also have a much later Penlington & Batty serial number 21536 dating to 1898, most notable (to me) because this was the first pocket watch in my collection :)

    1 2 Penlington & Batty.JPG 1 5 Penlington & Batty.JPG

    85 1 Joseph Penlington.jpg 85 6 Joseph Penlington.jpg 31 1 Joseph Penlington.jpg 31 5 Joseph Penlington.jpg 31 6 Joseph Penlington.jpg 1 2 Penlington & Batty.JPG 1 5 Penlington & Batty.JPG
     
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  5. Audemars

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    I don’t think this is going to be a lot of help but here it is anyway.

    I have records of sales by Audemars’ London “Depot” to a customer called Penlington & Hutton.
    Location not shown, but in any case the Audemars seem to have thought England was in London, not the other way round.

    255702 – 4 1881
    256211 – 22 1881
    256271 1881
    256578 – 81 1882
    256583 – 85 1882
    52114 1883
    52115 1883

    These are all watches sourced by the London Depot from factories other than Audemars’ own (the 5-digit numbers are from Courvoisier and the six-digit ones from Calame-Robert).

    Most if not all are noted as silver, which presumably refers to the cases.
    They may have been movements imported for finishing and casing in London/England.
    The ledger isn’t too clear.

    Paul
     
  6. MartyR

    MartyR Registered User
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    According to Tony Mercer Penlington & Hutton were at St George's Crescent from c.1880 until 1895, when they morphed into Penlington & Batty.
     
  7. Audemars

    Audemars Registered User
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    That fits.
    Those sales were all in the period 1881 - 3
    P
     
  8. itspcb

    itspcb Registered User
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    Very nice watches Martin. Audemars thanks for your input too.
    Liverpool museum records seem to indicate that Hutton was around till 1932. There are many Huttons in the watchmaking trade.
    Batty was a Manchester jeweller, no doubt this relationship was of a marketing nature. Batty was still in business as Batty and Sons in 1971, no mention of Pendlington. Batty sold his jewellers regulator marked Pendington and Batty for £115 in 1971. Watches signed only Batty around 1900 exist.There's a lot of research for someone to do!
    Peter
     
  9. PWR_family

    PWR_family Registered User

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    Looks like we have some experts on this thread so hoping for some help

    Serial # of this Jos'h Penlington is 12859

    Appears to be a gold filled case

    Running and keeping excellent time!

    Any idea what year it might be from? Any value to a collector?

    IMG_3778.JPG IMG_3779.JPG IMG_3780.JPG IMG_3781.JPG IMG_3782.JPG IMG_3783.JPG IMG_3784.JPG IMG_3785.JPG IMG_3786.JPG
     
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  10. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi PWR_family,

    The marks on the inner back show that it's 18 carat gold, but I can't see a town mark or a date letter. The apparent lack of any hallmarks in the rest of the case is puzzling, are they there but rubbed? The keyless wound movement is a good quality, free-sprung 3/4 plate English lever with a going barrel, signed by a good Liverpool maker. It probably dates from the last quarter of the 19th century, but English watches changed very slowly over time, so that guess may be out.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  11. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
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    #11 John Matthews, Jul 25, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2020
    I believe the fourth photograph shows the registration mark {AS} in a rectangular cartouche. As far as I can see this mark was only registered at the London Assay office. If so this is likely to be the mark of Alfred Stram. A native of Switzerland he registered this mark on 17 June 1867 from 11 East Street Red Lion Square where he had succeeded Louis Comtesse. Culme says he moved to Northampton Square in 1854 where he worked until he died in 1893. This mark registered at his original address according to Priestley, so either both addresses were active, or the references are in conflict.

    I think it is probably an 18K case.

    John
     
  12. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
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    Another day and another possibility.

    I should have noted that there is one further possibility in the previous post. The same mark was used by Arnold Schlaefli registered on 4 December, 1878. His address at that time was 35 Queen Victoria Street. A date letter would help - if the letter is lower case 'm' to 'u' or upper case 'A' or 'B' then it is almost certiainly Stram. After 1878 (date letter upper case 'C') it would appear that Schaefli's registration should take precedence. As Culme indicates that Stram continued working until 1893, I can only presume that he would have to revert to using an earlier registered mark in an oval cartouche, last registered in 1856 at the Northampton Street address. Stram is specifically described as a gold watch case maker in an advert in The Times in 1870 (Britten 1904) as quoted by Culme. Schlaefli is described as an agent and that he was succeeded by Louis Wengi at the Queen Victoria address in 1880 - so I balance I think it most likely that the case was made by Stram.

    Even with all the excellent references available we cannot always be 100% certain :(.

    John
     
  13. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi PWR_family,

    There's no doubt that this is a fine quality watch which would be of interest to a collector; not only is it free-sprung, it has cap jewels to the lever and escape, it's jewelled to the centre, it has what appears to be a 'tuning fork' lever tail, (just visible under the balance rim), and if the case is by Stram, he was one of the leading case makers of the period.

    IMG_3778.JPG

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  14. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
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    Graham the back 3/4 plate, the shape of the escape and lever cock, together with jewelling, reminds me of Nicole Neilsen movements, but I don't have a freesprung example to compare. Although it doesn't have the adjustable banking, I wonder if it might have been made by him for Penlington - what do you think?

    John
     
  15. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi John,

    Yes, it could well be a Nicole Nielsen movement, that particular shape of top plate was used by them, it's seen on some of their watches signed for Dent as well.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  16. PWR_family

    PWR_family Registered User

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    You guys are an amazing source of information. I know my Dad was a member of NAWCC and I can see why! Thanks all.
     
  17. Dr. Jon

    Dr. Jon Moderator
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    Here is another Penlington. This one was made by kullberg.

    casefront.png

    dial.png
    movement.png
    It is serial number 13455

    Its date marks:
    marks.png

    The date looks like 1871 to me
     
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  18. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Jon,

    And it does to me.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
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  19. Lychnobius

    Lychnobius Registered User

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    Through the kindness of Allan Purcell I can add Penlington movement no. 8943, a tiny (33mm dial) English lever with a double-ended fusee arbor so that it can be wound, McCabe fashion, from either front or back. My attempts at photographing it were all dismal failures but I think you can recognise the essentials from the attached image, including the archaic flat-rimmed brass balance. The dial is also old-fashioned in being very slightly convex; there is no seconds dial and the front keyhole, lined with a brass collet, is just below figure II. I would have dated it to about 1840, but it appears from this thread (especially Martin's No. 9627) that it must be at least twelve years later and perhaps fifteen.

    Oliver Mundy.

    penlington_8943_back.jpg
     
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