John Moncas, Massey?

Omexa

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Hi Keith, you said to keep up the interesting movement coming in. I think I have had a win Martin and Graham, I have wanted a "John Moncas" movement for a while but up until now I have always been outbid. I think that I can see a Massey 2 hiding inside, I hope. I think it is dated from early c1830's Regards Ray 1.jpg 2.jpg 3.jpg 4.jpg 5.jpg 6.jpg n
 

novicetimekeeper

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what does the bent wire with the sharpened point do? It is in the picture showing the escapement.
 

gmorse

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Hi Nick,

It's a "hack" feature, which I'd prefer to call a balance brake, but it looks as though the wire has been bent down out of position rather.

Regards,

Graham
 

Omexa

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Hi Nick, it stops the movement, see the lever sticking out of the Dial plate. Well Graham does it look like it is a Massey 2? Regards Ray
 

gmorse

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Hi Ray,

Certainly looks like a Massey II. Moncas is well regarded.

Regards,

Graham
 

novicetimekeeper

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Do you just push it in to touch the balance then? I've been learning more about hacks since getting my Patek Philippe and finding it doesn't have one. :)
 

gmorse

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Hi Nick,

There will be a detent spring on the lever so that it snaps into one of two positions. The designs vary, with the wire or fine spring acting on the balance itself, the escape, the fourth wheel or the lever. If it's badly designed or adjusted, it can put a strain on the pivots.

Regards,

Graham
 

Omexa

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Hi Graham, "If it's badly designed or adjusted, it can put a strain on the pivots." that's why I don't like the idea. Maybe why it is bent to be out of contact. A good comparison would be sticking a Broom Handle into the spokes of a Bike wheel; it stops the wheel but not good for the spokes. Regards Ray
 

novicetimekeeper

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I've been reading Patek Philippe's argument for not having a hack. I'd got so used to it on the Rolex I was a bit stunned that there wasn't one on the Patek Philippe. Presumably stopping a balance wheel that is oscillating at this low frequency is less of a shock but still pushing in places you don't want pushed.
 

gmorse

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Hi Nick,

DSCF3181.jpg DSCF2891.jpg

Here are two examples of high quality balance brakes. They're both from English cylinders, the first one acts on the centre seconds wheel, and the second one on the fourth wheel.

Regards,

Graham
 

Omexa

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Hi Graham, "Here are two examples of high quality balance brakes", this is a much better way than a "Balance Brake", with the wire or fine spring acting on the balance itself. I have not seen the two examples in your photos before. A much better idea. Regards Ray
 

Lychnobius

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Ray, you have done it again! A very decent specimen by the look of it. My guess is that it dates well back in the 1820s.

I am sorry to mention Joseph Johnson again, but the likeness between this and my Johnson 5680 is really extraordinary; there is the same cruciform pawl for the Harrison-type fusee, and the decorative scrolling around the word Liverpool is identical in every line as is the treatment of the figure 8. (See back-plate of 5680 below for comparison.) I feel more and more that the organisation of the Liverpool watch industry, and the use of shared and prefabricated parts therein, is a vast area for study in which I for one have done no more than touch the surface as yet. johnson_5680_back_03.jpg

Oliver Mundy.
 

gmorse

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Hi Ray,

Another interesting thing about the Harrison's is that its ratchet wheel appears to be brass, whereas most of them are steel, certainly the later ones.

Oliver, have you seen the documents on the Lancashire watch industry by Alan Treherne? Some were posted in post 51 of this thread a while ago, and they make fascinating reading.

Regards,

Graham
 

PapaLouies

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Hi Ray,

The hack wire usually reaches over to engage the 4th wheel. It does not appear that this wire would engage any wheel.

Regards,

PL
 

gmorse

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Hi PL,

This one looks as though it was planted in a position to stop the lever tail, but it's been bent out of the way accidentally or on purpose.

Regards,

Graham
 

Lychnobius

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Graham, thank you for the reference to Alan Traherne's articles!

Your experience is much wider than mine, but the latter (as far as it goes) suggests that hack-mechanisms of the bent-wire sort which still work are the exception rather than the rule. In fact I remember only one which operated correctly, and that was on an anonymous 'doctor's' verge of 1800 in which the wire pressed against the rim of the contrate-wheel.

Oliver Mundy.
 

gmorse

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Hi Oliver,

I think these mechanisms fall into the same category as Geneva stop-work; previous repairers either didn't know how or weren't inclined to set them up properly, so just disabled them by the quickest means. At least Ray has the parts there, with nothing apparently missing.

Regards,

Graham
 

Omexa

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1a.jpg 2a.JPG Hi, I took a punt and purchased it in the hope that it was OK. Sellers Description: "JOHN MONCAS LIVERPOOL FUSEE POCKETWATCH MOVEMENT, SERIAL 8478. DIAL MEASURES APPROX 42MM. SOMEONE SCRAPPED THE CASE. AM SELLING WATCH AS NOT WORKING AND BEING SOLD FOR PARTS AND PIECES. I WAS UNABLE TO SEE IT WORKING OR NOT WORKING." Guess What I was lucky it has a good Balance and it is definitely a "Massey 2" Regards Ray
 

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