Thanks John,
A photograph of the signature may help. Where is it located? From what I can see of the dial, it may be of continental origin. Additional photographs, showing the case marks and a side view of the movement may reveal further clues to its origin.
Whatever else he knew, he clearly wasn't aware of the history of English lever watches. A word about the details; there is a distinctive 'Liverpool' style of engraving on the balance cock, the lettering on the top plate, the large jewels and the way the regulator scale is divided with 'crows foot' markings. These details are not specific to any one maker but are common in most watches produced in the area at the beginning of the 19th century.
I would be more than surprised, provided that it isn't a conversion. Although the date of the introduction of the English lever is being pushed back with the results of research, the earliest verified example I'm aware of at the moment is probably from the early 1820s. This is of course as distinct from the work of Edward Massey and George Savage on the detached lever and Peter Litherland on the non-detached rack lever.
The first example, serial number 495, isn't a detached lever, it's a rack lever, patented by Peter Litherland in 1791. The other two appear to be the same watch.
Even if it's a fake, it's a very old one, and it still has a story to tell; indeed, these are collected by some, so please don't destroy it, someone else may find it worth having for its own sake.
I agree, but if times were hard, all sorts of dubious things were done. The conditions in the Coventry trade did spark a Parliamentary Report after all. Although fitted in a unusual way, these do appear to be functional jewels. Perhaps the O/P should send it to Rebecca Struthers!
I have a grinder, give it to me, I am experienced with grinders and you might hurt yourself
I understand. I figured such. Doesn't explain the 18k solid gold dial. I guess at least something is real about it
It's impossible to say from the picture, but these engravings were usually of imaginary landscapes, often exhibiting a European rather than an English character, which has led to speculation that many were imported from Switzerland.
I think your man is taking a view on English watches based on his experience with the American watches with which he must be most familiar. The difference is that the English watches were mostly not factory products but largely hand-made individually. Although many English watches were exported to the US in the 19th century, the numbers are still small when compared with the output of the large factories and it isn't surprising that knowledge of the English watch is sparse amongst most US repairers.
This watch was bought in America, by another firm in Liverpool, this time the case was made in England of 18K gold. The firm is Litherland & Davies. Litherland was the man who patented the Rack Lever. This watch though as a Massey I escapement. It also has a serial number. (11166) These numbers on a genuine Litherland watch can be collected and filed and they can tell you the year it was made, along with its hallmarks in the case and the initials inside the case will give you the name of the case maker. If you know where to look. If you cannot recognise the escapements, again the forums here will help you, try to concentrate on one Liverpool maker at first, because all that you learn about him or her, will be the same as all those other Liverpool watches in the era you choose.
would be better ended ...
Thank you, John, that is very kind of you, I was making that very point without the flowers.
The Swiss did fake fusees and much else besides, but you're quite right that they also made dials which were imported to the UK and used perfectly legitimately on English movements, so the presence of a potentially Swiss dial doesn't in and of itself imply that the movement is also Swiss. The arguments regarding reliance solely on a single element of the watch design have already been exercised earlier in this thread.
Well, this is a really difficult issue. If I look at my Golay minute repeater with chronograph, one would indeed suppose that the movement is English-made, like the case, the dial, balance and escapement, which indeed are. Among others Audemars Piguet supplied such "Genre Anglais" ebauchs to the UK and presented them in contemporary catalogues.
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