John Grant Bracket Clock

Bernhard J.

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:excited::excited::excited:

Here another one, also bought today, the same seller like the Brockbank & Atkins clock (thanks to Nathan again for the photo permission). I should think about keeping away from UK selling sites, so many great clocks and watches around there :emoji_laughing:

I know nothing (other than that is is special) and have no idea how to date it. The dial is enamel and nearly mint. Any information and thought is very welcome!

One thought from my end: At the lower right side of the backplate there is a thread and two holes without anything attached. I believe that originally there was a foot of a bracket attached, to which the pendulum could be fixed for transport. Any other idea?

Cheers, Bernhard

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bruce linde

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is that a 60 tooth escape wheel? 120 BPM? it's a shame that the bell covers so much of that lovely craftsmanship.

i think you're right about the missing piece.
 
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gmorse

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Hi Bernhard,
I know nothing (other than that is is special) and have no idea how to date it. The dial is enamel and nearly mint. Any information and thought is very welcome!
John Grant senior was an innovative and highly skilled clock and watch maker who died in 1810, but his son John junior carried on the business. This clock has a decidedly Regency look about it and I think it could be by either father or son. The Regency period technically began in 1811, but the style extended for some time before and after the reign of George IV, through William IV and into the early years of Victoria.

That escape wheel is certainly a work of art. It does appear to be a twin fusee, they were standard fittings on good quality clocks like this.

Regards,

Graham
 
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novicetimekeeper

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I don't think the hands are a pair, and I can't explain why a round movement is used, nor the early style of dial in a later style of case. I agree about the holes though, I think it needed two steady pins as it had to stick out so far to get beyond the bridge for the escape wheel.
 
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bwclock

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:excited::excited::excited:

Here another one, also bought today, the same seller like the Brockbank & Atkins clock (thanks to Nathan again for the photo permission). I should think about keeping away from UK selling sites, so many great clocks and watches around there :emoji_laughing:

I know nothing (other than that is is special) and have no idea how to date it. The dial is enamel and nearly mint. Any information and thought is very welcome!

One thought from my end: At the lower right side of the backplate there is a thread and two holes without anything attached. I believe that originally there was a foot of a bracket attached, to which the pendulum could be fixed for transport. Any other idea?

Cheers, Bernhard

View attachment 721039
View attachment 721040
View attachment 721041
View attachment 721042
Great clock!! There are a few makers named John Grant London in the Loomes and Baillie reference books. I am familiar with John Grant of Fleet Street but he died before your clock style. Maybe it was his son . I would guess the clock is 1820-1830's due to the type of engraving on the back plate, looking at the case style it might be later..

Looking at your photos I wonder if your clock was made with sweep seconds, now missing. The escape wheel seems to line up with the center of the dial. Further, there is a screw holding the minute hand on which makes me wonder if it is screwed into a hollow minute pipe through which a seconds bit may have passed. This will be discernible when you inspect the clock in person.

Agreed that the holes in the backplate for for the missing pendulum holdfast. These are frequently missing from the English fusee clocks I come across. It baffles me why so many of these clocks have had the holdfast removed. I have had to make a number of them over the years. Attached are two photos, one of a holdfast with the knurled knob removed and another showing a holdfast in operation.
Regards,
Bruce

Pend. holdfast Gutlin.jpg Pendulum holdfast.png
 

bwclock

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Great clock!! There are a few makers named John Grant London in the Loomes and Baillie reference books. I am familiar with John Grant of Fleet Street but he died before your clock style. Maybe it was his son . I would guess the clock is 1820-1830's due to the type of engraving on the back plate, looking at the case style it might be later..

Looking at your photos I wonder if your clock was made with sweep seconds, now missing. The escape wheel seems to line up with the center of the dial. Further, there is a screw holding the minute hand on which makes me wonder if it is screwed into a hollow minute pipe through which a seconds bit may have passed. This will be discernible when you inspect the clock in person.

Agreed that the holes in the backplate for for the missing pendulum holdfast. These are frequently missing from the English fusee clocks I come across. It baffles me why so many of these clocks have had the holdfast removed. I have had to make a number of them over the years. Attached are two photos, one of a holdfast with the knurled knob removed and another showing a holdfast in operation.
Regards,
Bruce

View attachment 721046 View attachment 721047
Great clock!! There are a few makers named John Grant London in the Loomes and Baillie reference books. I am familiar with John Grant of Fleet Street but he died before your clock style. Maybe it was his son . I would guess the clock is 1820-1830's due to the type of engraving on the back plate, looking at the case style it might be later..

Looking at your photos I wonder if your clock was made with sweep seconds, now missing. The escape wheel seems to line up with the center of the dial. Further, there is a screw holding the minute hand on which makes me wonder if it is screwed into a hollow minute pipe through which a seconds bit may have passed. This will be discernible when you inspect the clock in person.

Agreed that the holes in the backplate for for the missing pendulum holdfast. These are frequently missing from the English fusee clocks I come across. It baffles me why so many of these clocks have had the holdfast removed. I have had to make a number of them over the years. Attached are two photos, one of a holdfast with the knurled knob removed and another showing a holdfast in operation.
Regards,
Bruce

View attachment 721046 View attachment 721047
Bernhard, Please ignore my comments about the pendulum holdfast. I now see your earlier posting on your Brockbank & Atkins and note that you already knew what I was blabbing about. Incidentally, you are going to need a bigger house!!
Bruce
 

Bernhard J.

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Looking at your photos I wonder if your clock was made with sweep seconds, now missing. The escape wheel seems to line up with the center of the dial. Further, there is a screw holding the minute hand on which makes me wonder if it is screwed into a hollow minute pipe through which a seconds bit may have passed. This will be discernible when you inspect the clock in person.
This was an instant thought I had as well. It will be interesting to inspect all this in detail :) . However, the escape wheel seems to have about 60 teeth. If a sweep seconds hand would have been intended for the escape wheel, then one would have needed a 1 seconds pendulum, i.e. about 1 meter long ... (or is there some logical error in this?)
 

Bernhard J.

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I don't think the hands are a pair, and I can't explain why a round movement is used, nor the early style of dial in a later style of case. I agree about the holes though, I think it needed two steady pins as it had to stick out so far to get beyond the bridge for the escape wheel.
I would suppose that the hands are a pair, look at the both bases of the hands (near the arbors).

Yes, the combination is unusual. I did and do think that the case is later.

Exactly, steady pins were often used for such brackets, because the pendulum bob often is quite heavy and the pendulum spring is detached for transport. The bracket with the attached pendulum would otherwise perhaps turn upon shocks. I will be making a new bracket latest after retirement (and mark it as an addition).
 
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bruce linde

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It depends on the gearing… But I would expect a 1m pendulum with a 30 tooth escape wheel. My first thought was that it would support a sweep second hand. It also looks to me like the tip of the hour hand was repaired at some point. Very nice clock!
 
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gmorse

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Hi Bernhard,
... one would have needed a 1 seconds pendulum, i.e. about 1 meter long ... or is there some logical error in this?
Well, ask yourself how many pallets there are; each complete oscillation involves two locks and impulses, not one. A half-second pendulum, (one with a whole period of one second), is only some 250mm long. A so-called seconds pendulum makes a complete oscillation in two seconds and that is 1,000mm long. (T equals 2pi root (L over g)).

Regards,

Graham
 
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Bernhard J.

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It depends on the gearing… But I would expect a 1m pendulum with a 30 tooth escape wheel. My first thought was that it would support a sweep second hand. It also looks to me like the tip of the hour hand was repaired at some point. Very nice clock!
You are right! I just took a ladder, looked at my Paul Garnier clock movement with pinwheel escapement and seconds pendulum, counted teeth and stopped the rotation period (this clock does not have a seconds hand, never had). The escape wheel rotates once a minute and has 30 teeth. I am stupid and it is very hot here in the moment *lol*
 

Chris Radano

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Excellent clock.
In my opinion the dial and movement are older than the case by 20-30 years. The round movement is more suitable for a balloon or similar age case.
I certainly would not attempt to change the clock.
Note the dial style, position of the winding holes on the dial, and case style of the following. You be the judge.




 
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novicetimekeeper

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I would suppose that the hands are a pair, look at the both bases of the hands (near the arbors).
Yes, the hands have both had repairs by the look of it. If the current minute is not repaired could it be the second hand repurposed?
 
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Ralph

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I agree on a number of the comments. It being an earlier movement, and being a half second movement. It definitely looks like it had a sweep second hand at one time.

That screw should be a threaded bushing to help support the outboard end of the arbor. Having the screw in place, might suggest the arbor extension for the sweep second is shortened or broken off.

Ralph
 
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Bernhard J.

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Thank you all for the valuable comments. It will be interesting to see whether it really had a sweep seconds hand, because this might not necessarily be so, examplified by the Paul Garnier I have in the office, wherein the pin escapement wheel also rotates once a minute but a seconds hand was never fitted. The examples posted by Chris seem to confirm the earlier movement and the later case, as assumed right from the beginning. It also indeed seems from these examples that the minutes hand was not original with this tip form.

Chris, I will certainly not attempt to modify anything. Whatever changes have been made are part of the clock´s (early) history. And it does not really look "bad", compared with one or the other mariage. Of course it would be great if everything were original, but alone the movement would seem to justify the price paid (significanty less than originally asked as evident from internet). It will be interesting to research other examples of this configuration of pinwheel escapement, it seems rather unusual to me.

Cheers, Bernhard
 
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Bernhard J.

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Looking at the escapement wheel, I am initially reminded of the virgule (comma) escapement, because therein typically the teeth are formed quite similar to this John Grant movement. The virgule escapement is, of course, of not of any use in pendulum clocks, aside the fact that it has a lower number of teeth. I wonder, why the efforts were made to make this virgule-type escapement wheel in connection with a dead beat pinwheel escapement. It would presumably have been a lot easier to make a "classic" pinwheel escapement wheel, i.e. with the pins mounted directly on the rim of the escape wheel.

Cheers, Bernhard
 

Chris Radano

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I saw your clock listed at an auction so I knew it had looked familiar. It is possible the clock fell or otherwise sustained acute damage in it's life, and subsequently needed a new case and repair. Whatever the reason, the clock was valued and still exists today.
 

Bernhard J.

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It is possible the clock fell or otherwise sustained acute damage in it's life, and subsequently needed a new case and repair.
That reminds me of a photo posted somewhere (perhaps in this forum), warning about cats in a clock household. The photo showed a clock with the case completely smashed in parts after having fallen on the floor. Another reason why I do not like cats ;):eek:

But not only cats are a danger. Our household help has orders to stay away from clocks. She is a really nice and reliable person, but not always all too clever. Once she tried to dust a large ball cactus standing on the windowsill with a swiffer. With the result that the cactus was pulled from the windowsill. She clumsily tried to catch the cactus, with predictable consequences for the hands ... o_O
 
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Bernhard J.

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The clock arrived today. Phenomenally packed (seriously, I could not have done better). But the parcel service appears to have thrown the parcel around. Quite a lot of damage. The movement was broken out of the case, the bezel totally bent, the crystal fallen out, a post for a lever of the striking work broken off (!), various wood veneer parts broken off the case. It is really a wonder that the dial has survived without hairline and even the crystal is still OK.

Main functions of the movement work (except of the striking count due to the missing lever), so, insofar no real drama. Since the lever of the striking work was found in the package material, it will be quite easy to repair this. The broken post is screwed to the front plate with a square foot. So simply a new post needs to be made and inserted thereto and fixed therein, ready. The wood repairs will be easy also (the larger flakes). The bezel will be fun to get straight again, but this is helped by the still intact crystal. Since I anyway have a mild form of wrong planet syndrome, I do not mind if it takes hours until the bezel is perfect again :D.

The movement indeed originally had a sweep seconds hand. I tend to leve it as it is, on the other hand, reconstructing the sweep seconds function is no great effort, the main problem being that matching hands (minutes and/or seconds) would then be needed.

By the way, the fusee groves have circular cross section and not square, thus the gut seems to be the original layout (and not a chain).

Looking at all this in detail lets me assume with great confidence that the movement indeed was made by the elder John Grant. The movement is absolutely brilliant and I still am really happy, despite the above experience. A nice detail is that the winding key made of brass might even be original (to the movement or the case *lol*).

Cheers, Bernhard

P.S.: Funny, when unpacking, I found a part which was not present in the sellers photos (brass winding hole protective tube), unfortunately one only. I also found two parts, about which I still am wondering where they might belong. Tomorrow I will take a picture of the parts (and debris) and post this (and ask, if I do not figure it out myselfe).
 
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Bernhard J.

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So, did some after work work :D on the bezel, it is now nearing a good state again, at least it takes the crystal almost perfectly. A giant meeting room table is quite helpful for spreading out things :D. Still some minor and light handed bending needed to remove any tension with the fitted crystal. The crytsal definitely is old.Then the hook for the latch of the bezel needs to be attached again, it had been soft soldered to the bezel at some earlier juncture and this did, of course not hold well. I still need to think about how to get this right without harming the patina of the bezel in that area.

A test of the running train with the pendulum was positive, apparently no damage in that area, puh. I love this beautiful escapement and that the escape wheel does not exhibit any kind of irregularity.

Photos follow tomorrow or Thursday.

Future work will be:
- make a new post for the striking work lever
- make a second winding hole protective tube of brass (having one as a template, luckily)
- fix all rescued veneer flakes to the case
- fix the hook to the bezel
- finalize straightening of the bezel
- fix the crystal into the bezel
- mount the movement into the case
- mount the bezel

What a difference to the Brockbank and Atkins, this needed just to fit the pendulum and everything is perfect. Presumably the risk of transport damage is reduced due to the comparatively small size and low weight of that clock.

Cheers, Bernhard
 

Bernhard J.

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Here are some photos. In the background of the first photo is the movement of the Knox clock awaiting the new 24 hour wheel.

L1030349.JPG

L1030350.JPG

I like the key.

L1030350a.jpg

Here is the selection of part recovered from the packing material. Where might the two marked part belong? The small one might go on a tube in which the hour wheel (bearing the hour hand) is guided. For the large one I have no idea, it also is made rather crudely.

L1030351a.jpg

The movement is OK and most functions appear to work like they should.

L1030352.JPG

The grooves in the fusee are for guts, not for chains.

L1030352a.jpg

Wonderful escapement wheel.

L1030353.JPG

Here is the broken post for the lever seen in the fourth photo. I wonder how this has happened without damage to adjacent parts, and in particular the dial.

L1030354a.jpg

Fortunately quite easy to repair.

Cheers, Bernhard
 
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novicetimekeeper

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If a clock is to be transported by any means other than man and van or crate and forklift, then the movement needs to be removed before packing and dispatching. I know not everyone agrees with this but that's the approach I use and it works. These clocks were never designed for modern courier mechanical, or even manual, handling.
 

Bernhard J.

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And even then I would (if I had/have the choice) use a specialist courier service. The Knox clock was delivered by such, the fellow, self employed and well known to the professional seller, was in no rush at all, all parts were packed separately, case, hood, movement, pendulum, weights, etc., the fellow helped getting all parts into the office and insisted to wait also, until I had checked and confirmed that all is complete, nothing left in the vehicle and in proper condition.

In case of this movement, one problem is that the movement is really heavy. If it is packed separately, then shocks acting on the rear side of the movement might create severe damage to the escapement. One might think, that it is safer to leave it in the case, because then the rear side is of no risk of mechanical impact. Assuming that the movement itself remains fixed in the case. Which was not so here, due to the quite heavy movement.

Best would probably be to make a tailored wooden transport frame or case for the movement alone. This is what I would presumably have done. Would have taken one or the other hour, and a beer, of course.

Cheers, Bernhard
 

gmorse

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Hi Bernhard,

I've seen parts like those you've highlighted used to secure the winding hole collets (tubes) to the dial. Is the one collet that you have slotted at one end? It looks as though it is.

Regards,

Graham
 
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Bernhard J.

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Hi Graham,

Ha, it ideed is and the smaller part fits. The large one will presumable fit the central tube, I will see when I take the dial off.

Thanks for this,

Cheers, Bernhard
 
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novicetimekeeper

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And even then I would (if I had/have the choice) use a specialist courier service. The Knox clock was delivered by such, the fellow, self employed and well known to the professional seller, was in no rush at all, all parts were packed separately, case, hood, movement, pendulum, weights, etc., the fellow helped getting all parts into the office and insisted to wait also, until I had checked and confirmed that all is complete, nothing left in the vehicle and in proper condition.

In case of this movement, one problem is that the movement is really heavy. If it is packed separately, then shocks acting on the rear side of the movement might create severe damage to the escapement. One might think, that it is safer to leave it in the case, because then the rear side is of no risk of mechanical impact. Assuming that the movement itself remains fixed in the case. Which was not so here, due to the quite heavy movement.

Best would probably be to make a tailored wooden transport frame or case for the movement alone. This is what I would presumably have done. Would have taken one or the other hour, and a beer, of course.

Cheers, Bernhard

I save the cardboard inners of rolls of packing tape to protect the movement parts that stick out and prepack with those myself before handing to a professional packer, I have found that is used by professional packers too.
 
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Bernhard J.

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Is the one collet that you have slotted at one end?
Hi Graham,

Just for my education, what is the difference between a collet and a grommet (asked for search purposes)? In German it generally says "Schildbuchsen". Maybe I found a supplier in Germany, no customs, puh, but he still has to respond my inquiry :D.

I will anyway have to work on the collar, which is about 0,5 mm only.

Cheers, Bernhard
 

gmorse

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Hi Bernhard,
Just for my education, what is the difference between a collet and a grommet (asked for search purposes)?
I think they both refer to much the same shaped object, it's just that a 'collet' is what it's usually called in horology. However, the parts on a repeater hammer that are engaged by the rack are also called collets, and they're only distantly similar.

Regards,

Graham
 
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Bernhard J.

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This evening, being for myself, I took apart the movement partially. Indeed, the movement had sweep seconds, as evident from the escapewheel. The arrow points to the collar, which runs in the front plate. The outer end (right) is nicely finished and seems made on a lathe. It is slightly tapered also, over the total length from the collar to the right.

L1030359a.jpg

But now look, what someone did here :eek:.

L1030357.JPG

And a bit closer ...

L1030355.JPG

I now wonder about the escape wheel and whether this might be original like that and intended for a seconds hand with a long pipe. Because the fellow, who did the butcher job on the minute wheel for sure will not have finished the outer end of the escape wheel so nicely. What do you think?

Cheers, Bernhard
 

Bernhard J.

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Today the mechanical issues were attended to. First the post for the lever of striking work was made. The foot was removed and a hole was drilled therein. The post was made from a piece of steel on a normal Lathe and pressed into the hole of the foot. The hole for the pin was drilled with a normal drill, the drill was 0,3 mm. Here is the result:

L1030360.JPG

L1030361.JPG

L1030362.JPG

Next was reconstruction of the butchered square for the minute hand. A piece of brass was drilled (3,5 mm) and a square filed by hand to one end. The other end was turned to 5 mm outer diameter. The hole in the minute arbor was carefully drilled by hand to 5 mm and a depth of about 5 mm. The tube with the square was then pressed into the minute arbor. I still need to decide about fixing of the minute hand (it now holds by friction), but will do so, if I find a matching minute hand.

Anyone have a minute hand?

Here is the result.

L1030363.JPG

L1030365.JPG


Now I can decide about fitting the sweep seconds again, without any disassembly. I must only make a pipe for the seconds hand with a hole of about 1,2 mm on one end, on the other end the sweep seconds hand will be fitted. The arbor of the escape wheel , see above, is slightly tapered and has a diameter from 1,2 mm to 1,4 mm. The pipe will have an outer diameter of about 2 mm and provide enought clearance to the minute wheel arbor.

Somewhat fun was the reassembly, because both, minute hand and hour hand, are fixed and cannot be rotated for adjustment. But now everything is perfect, test of striking and excapement was both without any issues. Tomorrow I will take care of the case.

L1030366.JPG
 

Bernhard J.

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Today the case was repaired (veneer flakes refitted), the bezel repaired with a microtorch (the latch attached), the crystal fixed in the bezel (it snapped in perfectly, but I nevertheless added some glue, this stuff for crystal fitting, forgot the name), the movement fitted into the case. Everything is fine now and even works ;).

Video is not accepted by the forum software, for unknown reasons, sorry. It is not really nice and tilted by 90° anyway :D

Cheers, Bernhard
 

gmorse

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Hi Bernhard,

That's good work. You could use a smear of Loctite 638 to keep that square in place, some may blanche at the thought, but I think it's a legitimate use of a modern retaining compound.

Video is not accepted by the forum software, for unknown reasons, sorry. It is not really nice and tilted by 90° anyway
The support for video attachments in the forum is a bit rudimentary, but posting it on YouTube or Vimeo and then including the link in your post is the recommended method and will work very well.

Regards,

Graham
 
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bruce linde

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The support for video attachments in the forum is a bit rudimentary, but posting it on YouTube or Vimeo and then including the link in your post is the recommended method and will work very well. Regards,Graham
the solution is actually a little more elegant than described. YouTube handles all of the formatting to make cross browser and cross platform accessible for all browsers and devices. I would imagine that xenforo has 20 engineers max, where YouTube probably has several hundred. Upload your video to YouTube and then copy and paste the URL into a post here to automatically embed a video
 
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Bernhard J.

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You could use a smear of Loctite 638 to keep that square in place, some may blanche at the thought, but I think it's a legitimate use of a modern retaining compound.
Hi Graham,

That was indeed my second option, if it had not been a good press fit. We are talking about a few 1/100 mm or even less and easily 1/100 mm too much is scrubbed of. I also think that this is absolutely legitimate for purposes like this.

Cheers, Bernhard
 

Bernhard J.

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Here is the video, I managed to convert it to mp3. But not yet to rotate it by 90° :D. This video was recorded using my 20 year old Leica, recently bought for peanuts. The video quality is somewhat less than the photo quality (evident above), my apologies for this :D (I do not have a smartphone).
 

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So, today I have ordered two brass microtubes, OD 1,4 mm / ID 1,2 mm, and OD 1,6 mm / ID 1,4 mm. One of these should nicely glide onto the slightly tapered arbor of the escape wheel until a light friction fit is achieved.

And a sweep seconds hand. Intended for a quartz clock :eek:. But that should be OK until I find something better. On the other hand, a simple straight thin black hand would not be too bad? I presumably will have to balance it.Will be fixed to the microtube with a droplett of glue (shame on me) rotwerd.gif .

But the seconds hand will be easily removed again to resume the "original" state (i.e. how I got it, less the screw for fixing the
minute hand buttkick.gif ), if desired. Just by pulling the microtube off again. So, nothing irreversible done.

Cheers, Bernhard
 
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Bernhard J.

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Hi All,

Wife is away and the seconds hands have arrived today. Forget TV.

Here is the seconds hand, shortened and balanced. And fitted with a small adapter made from one larger microtube, which fits over both, the microtube needed for the seconds arbour and the pipe of the seconds hand. As a light press fit. Lucky me. The result looks like this.

L1030400.JPG

I will have to think about the center, either touch up in black or leave it like it is. Here it is mounted.

L1030401.JPG

I would say, looks quite pleasing. And finally a (horrible) video as evidence that all indeed worked out. :cool:

Cheers, Bernhard
 

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WIngraham

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You have done that clock justice, it looks great. I was not expecting the escapement to be that loud, very nice sound. Thanks for the video.

Will
 
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Bernhard J.

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Hi,

Yes, the escapement is indeed quite loud, louder than one would expect in view of the small drop at the escapement wheel. And the bell is extremely loud (with the hammer adjusted properly), the loudest of all my clocks. Although the clock stands in a room on the ground floor and we sleep upstairs, I need to stop it over night :D.

Cheers, Bernhard
 

PatH

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Although the clock stands in a room on the ground floor and we sleep upstairs, I need to stop it over night :D.
Just let it go. You'll get used to it and never hear it. Maybe??;)
 
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Bernhard J.

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In my workshop I still have an unused sound insulation hood for a compressor, which would fit over the clock ... :cool::D

We live in the countryside and are used to .... silence at night (except of the cocks calling early in the morning and the occasional dog barking) :D
 
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novicetimekeeper

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In my workshop I still have an unused sound insulation hood for a compressor, which would fit over the clock ... :cool::D

We live in the countryside and are used to .... silence at night (except of the cocks calling early in the morning and the occasional dog barking) :D
I had an acrylic display box made to go over one of mine but that's verge, more thump than tick.
 
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