John Francis Duterrau, Bond St London

[novicetimekeeper]

I can't work out the history of the firm in Bond Street, perhaps somebody can help. Born 1783 died 1848. (edited)

He was in business in Bond St with Francis Perigal until his death in 1810 when the business continued until 1840. Supposedly as Perigal & Duterrau.

However I recently bought a clock signed Duterrau, Bond Street.

I am trying to find a timeline based on the single name.

I don't think there was another Duterrau who continued the business, perhaps there was.

 

[Uhralt]

It seems he lived his life backwards....

Uhralt

 

[novicetimekeeper]

It seems he lived his life backwards....

Uhralt

fixed, thanks for that.

 

[jmclaugh]

Loomes' entries are not helpful, a John Francis isn't listed and they have the spelling variations of Duterrau, Dutterau and Duterreau. He has Perigal & Dutterau 1803-40, Britten has Perigal & Duterrau 1810-40, both New Bond Street. Lots of info on the Perigal family though.

 

[novicetimekeeper]

I think that it was just Perigal until 1810, Duterrau was his nephew by marriage and also his apprentice. I think they were in business together from 1810. Perigal died in 1814 and the business is said to have continued with the joint name until 1840. I can find detail of a Daniel Duterrau in the 1850s but don't know if that was also at the Bond St address. (The address in Bond St has two street numbers over time but may have been the same place just renumbered)

The dial clock movement is signed Duterrau, Bond St London. It has plates and pillars that suggest post 1850 but I can't find a business to match the signature after 1840. I also can't find a business that didn't have Perigal in the name.

 

[novicetimekeeper]

Found a book on the firm, will have a look in that when it arrives.

 

[novicetimekeeper]

The book has arrived. The clock has not left the auction house yet as I don't have an invoice.

I now know that the firm was always at the same address in Bond St but the building was renumbered. I also know that Duterrau was Perigal's brother in law not his nephew.

The business actually continued until 1845 when it shut up shop and everything as sold off by auction.

Duterrau invested in property but died in 1848 so did not get much time to enjoy his retirement. The business had been struggling a bit because of the changes in watchmaking becoming more centralised and competition from abroad.

The clockmaking side had been a customer of John Thwaites from the early days, and this movement may well turn out to be by Thwaites & Reed. If it has a number on the front that will simplify dating, but it seems that it must be before 1845.

The building at 62 bond st still exists but the shop is part of Fenwicks Dept store.

 

[novicetimekeeper]

Clock arrived today, very pleased with it. The hour hand is brass and 20th century I think, the minute hand is very elegant and iron.

Can't get the hour hand off at the moment but can't see any sign of a Thwaites & Read number on the front. Superb signature on the movement with evidence the dial was signed.

The pillars are not in Rose, but I think the clock is about 1840. The profile of the bezel, the profile of the surround, the shape of the plates, the minute hand, all point to the end of the operating period of the company.

The case is small, and has been modified but pretty good condition, the surround is good with no splits, the bezel is loose but original, the glass is replaced and unfortunately held in with putty, may have to break the glass to get that out. There is still a lock in the surround which could be restored. The dial is original but needs repainting, has a blister where a dial foot has moved but it seems fine now. Some evidence of the signature, will have the one on the back put on the dial.

Movent seems pretty good, one bushing, don't think others are needed. Just a clean and replace the steel hawser with gut.

All in all a good buy.

 

[zedric]

Any chance of photos?

 

[novicetimekeeper]

oops, sorry, will take them when I get home from work so I have some natural light.

 

[novicetimekeeper]

Forgot these, had permission to share.

 

[daveR]

Unusual plate shape, I dont remember seeing that one in the dial clock book.
David

 

[novicetimekeeper]

Unusual plate shape, I dont remember seeing that one in the dial clock book.
David

I've ignored the bottom shape and concentrated on the top for dating. The pillars are unusual too, Ron Rose has similar but they are thicker in the middle and symmetrical. These are thicker towards the middle then thinner one end than the other.

They were a regular buyer of Thwaites movements, I think it is likely to be a Thwaites, hopefully I will get that brass hour hand released this evening.

Has another feature I have not seen before, one of the dialfeet comes up under the stop mechanism for the fusee so instead of going through the plate and pinned the other side it stops flush and the pin goes in the edge of the plate. You can see it sticking out in the third picture.

Although it is a 12 inch dial it seems smaller, partly the thin surround and partly the small backbox. It is quite strange, I had to measure it to check.

I think convex dials do have that effect but the very small cast bezel helps too.

 

[jmclaugh]

Nice dial clock. You've probably seen it Nick but Rose's book records it is known that T&R produced at least 21 movements for Perigal & Duterrau and a clock by them is on page 103, the backcock is the same though different plates/pillars, the minute hand looks very similar, it has a sprung-in convex glass, 7" dial.

 

[novicetimekeeper]

Yes, I have both the rose and the book on Perigal and Duterrau. The sprung thing I missed, there are spring clips sticking out from the putty, this may be how the glass was originally held. The bezel looks like one of Rose's flat glass bezels, it is small in cross section and cast. It has a small foot and then comes off perpendicular to that before curving sharply. Will take closeups of the bezel and the signs of spring clips this evening. It's a sweet little clock, though the little bit is how it makes you feel about it, it is still a 12" dial.

 

[zedric]

Somehow I was thinking it would be a bracket clock. Nice though..

 

[novicetimekeeper]

Somehow I was thinking it would be a bracket clock. Nice though..

Ah, sorry to disappoint. I've always liked dial clocks, They are cheaper than bracket clocks as a rule and I think easier to live with in a way as I have more wall space than horizontal surface space. This is my fourth. They are much later than my normal interest, even my earliest is at least 50 years younger than I would consider usually for a longcase and at least 30 years younger than I would normally consider for a bracket though I do like some regency brackets.

 

[novicetimekeeper]

Well for the first time with this clock I am a bit disappointed. No T&R number so I don't know who made it and I cant date it more accurately.

There is some shadow of the signature on the dial, we may get a clue about what fonts to use.

 

[P.Hageman]

Nick, thats a very nice clock indeed. I really like those early convex dial clocks. Congrats!

 

[novicetimekeeper]

Nick, thats a very nice clock indeed. I really like those early convex dial clocks. Congrats!

It is a fine clock I think, shame I can't pin the date down to a year. It will look much better with the correct hand and the signature back on the dial. It seems to need little work which is a bonus, my clocks usually end up costing a lot to restore!

 

[DeanT]

Well for the first time with this clock I am a bit disappointed. No T&R number so I don't know who made it and I cant date it more accurately.

Whilst I know T&R movements are good quality I think its better have had an unusual movement rather than the stock standard!

Nice movement and case. Looks like it doesn't need much work either.

Cheers
Dean

 

[novicetimekeeper]

The only sad bit about the T&R thing is that without their number I can't tie it to a year. It does show that Perigal & Duterrau did not only source from T&R, and it is as you say an unusual piece which makes it all the better.

 

[novicetimekeeper]

More pics received today, it is looking a lot better, case is with the cabinet maker, dial with the dial painter, and no hands yet (these are on loan for regulation)

 

[DeanT]

Very nice indeed. As usual Peter has done a great job.

 

[novicetimekeeper]

Very nice indeed. As usual Peter has done a great job.

Yes, this clock will have the dream team, Peter, Cindy, and Scott. All I have to do is pay for it and hang it on the wall. Sadly it won't be allowed to run where it is going, but I decided it deserved a full restoration. Such a shame nobody gets to see these signatures once it is on the wall.

 

[novicetimekeeper]

Dial done. based on evidence of earlier fonts found on dial.

 

[novicetimekeeper]

Dial with new hands. Getting there slowly. Case is still with cabinet maker

 

[DeanT]

That's an excellent results...doesn't look new at all

 

[novicetimekeeper]

That's an excellent results...doesn't look new at all

I was really impressed with that. It is Peter's picture, I haven't seen it yet. Case is still with Scott, he tells me he is enjoying working on it. The hands are laser cut but hand finished.

 

[novicetimekeeper]

Got back to me finished today. New veneer and door plus new lock on the bottom of the case. All looks great and everybody involved has said what a quality clock it is.

 

[zedric]

Looks great -give us some more photos when it’s up on the wall..

 

[novicetimekeeper]

this weekend hopefully, house is stuffed with clocks now with no room to move, need to find homes for those staying!

 

[DeanT]

this weekend hopefully, house is stuffed with clocks now with no room to move, need to find homes for those staying!

However did that happen?

 

[novicetimekeeper]

really not sure, Scott felt quite guilty as he brought more in, fortunately he took one away, I offered him the dial and movement of that one but it fits the mask as is so it gt left behind. every where you turn there are clocks by clocks, in front of clocks, but matthew is concerned that most of them might be mine. We shall see by the end of my christmas holiday!

 

[novicetimekeeper]

Safely installed. Seems a bit off the vertical to get into beat, will attend to that sometime. Otherwise it is very happy. Sharing the limelight with a lodger, after the New Year the space will be his own.

 

[DeanT]

That's come up a treat. Another one rescued and restored back to its original glory!

 

[novicetimekeeper]

yes, bit overshadowed by the lodger but this position in the house means the clock can run. It has a very quiet tick too!

 

[zedric]

Well, hopefully some of the lodgers will be moving on soon - it does look very smart..

 

[novicetimekeeper]

The lodgers are moving out first week of Jan!

 

[novicetimekeeper]

I have to say this clock is incredibly easy to live with, a really quiet tick. Good location to check the time before going out the front door too.

 

[P.Hageman]

Did I already tell you, you have a fantastic taste

 

[novicetimekeeper]

Did I already tell you, you have a fantastic taste

How kind, sadly I have taste far beyond my means, but I like rescuing these clocks.

 

[DeanT]

How kind, sadly I have taste far beyond my means, but I like rescuing these clocks.

Very nice taste indeed and everyone has tastes beyond their means....

 

[Prof.P.]

I wonder if anyone can help me with regards Benjamin Duterrau? I have seen a pocket watch bearing his name and Hammersmith? It seems, from Wikipedia, that both a father and son had the same name. The son though was a famous painter who married a Sarah Perigal who emigrated to Tasmania later in life in 1832, aged in his 60s , but who did work in family watch/clockmaking business earlier in his life. My assumption would be that the father made the watch- but I can find no trace of him?

 

[novicetimekeeper]

Benjamin Duterrau Snr 1741-1822

Benjamin became a repeating watch motion maker. He was apprenticed to Richard Willder who appears to have been apprenticed to Claude Perigal Snr in 1742. Francis Perigal was Benjamin's father in law. Benjamin I had one son survive to adulthood, Benjamin II.

Benjamin II married Elizabeth Perigal in 1811. He was an etcher and portrait painter.